AIBU to think that it is immoral to have financial incentives to harvest peoples' organs on the NHS?

[ZhenThereWereTwo]

AIBU to think that to give hospitals financial incentives for numbers of organs donated leaves a lot of scope for corruption, especially when dealing with elderly, vulnerable, disabled or people with learning difficulty. Alder Hay and many other stories show us that medical professionals do not always act with integrity or to the Hippocratic oath.

Article here.

Evidence portfolio from NHS here.

Whatever you think about the proposals, I would encourage you to add your voice by filling in the survey here.

It is likely that they will not have many people doing the survey from non-medical backgrounds as it is not widely advertised, but it is your way of giving your opinion on the proposals.

My MIL was in intensive care with only 20% chance of survival, they told us she would not wake up again as she was on life support and in a coma with little brain activity.

Well she did wake up and she was no vegetable. Would they have harvested her organs under these new proposals, I think so.

Organs are harvested when technically you are still alive.

Some hospitals give the donor an anaesthetic and some don?t, there is medical research that shows brain stem dead people respond to pain stimuli.

The government has no right to lay claim to my organs unless I opt to give them. This automatic donation unless you opt out infringes my human rights to decide what happens to my body once I am no longer conscious in a U.K. hospital.

To be quite frank these proposals scare me. I will be telling everyone I know to be very careful about organ donation, because there are many documented cases of people waking up from comas, strokes and even some waking up in the morgue.

So unless it is your intention to occasionally kill and harvest people that could have survived, against their wishes in some cases, you need to think about these proposals. I think organ donation is important, but not at the expense of our human rights. A sick person doesn't have more rights to my organs than I have rights to choose whether to donate or not.

They wouldn't have harvested anyones organs without definitive proof of brain death.
I think you are irresponsibly scaremongering, which leads to LESS organ donation, which is a Very Bad Thing.

If you selfishly have opted out, nobody will take your organs.

I hardly think they are going to knock you over the head and rip your organs out if you aren't brain dead and gave consent to do so.

But, I've been wrong before...

Just out of interest I presume that if you suddenly had organ failure you would turn down a transplant?

So why don't you just opt out?

opt out then

my take on it i 'meh I'll be DEAD what do I care' they can have whatever is of use

I think YABU

Personally, I would be in favour of usable organs being used by default, without needing the consent of the person or their relatives. They're not needed by the person anymore so they should save another life.

''Organs are harvested when technically you are still alive''

Bollocks, my bil had his organs donated and he wasn't alive at all, he was brain dead and his heart had stopped. They couldn't use most of his organs as it took him 30mins to die when they turned off his life support.

PenisVanLesbian

Was the Alder Hay scandal scaremongering or a fact? Peoples organs were taken illegally and sold on. They didn't get permission from the parents of the Alder Hay babies and sold their body parts on to private medical science companies.

Was the recent case of over a hundred elderly people being neglected, resulting in their deaths scaremongering or fact?

Don't presume, I am a registered donor in fact.

What is definite proof of brain death and how can we be sure that the doctor has given us the correct results?

Don't accuse me of scaremongering, they told us we should switch of my MIL's life support and she clearly wasn't brain dead as she woke up and was fine.

What about the right for people to be allowed to die, rather than being kept alive in order to harvest their organs?

It is amazing how you can claim I am selfish for thinking about what I want to do with my own organs and my own life and choices for my death.

Have you read the survey and given your opinion?

YABU. Those who are worried can opt out. It's a way to make sure organs are put to good use - to save someone's life.

yes and Alderhey was a SCANDAL that was UNCOVERED and those involved didn't exactly get pats on the back

You are being a bit silly OP

i can see some of your point op but i really dont think the UK anyway will be going organ collecting crazy,im thinking we must have some of the strictest regulations on this,though im sure theres been error

please people dont let this put of donating,theres a shortage as it is and speaking as somebody that had a very very close family member benefit from a donated heart i know how much,not just by me but their children benefited from an extra 8yrs with their dad

now selling female eggs and getting paid for im all for though slightly of topic

They wouldn't have told you to switch the machines off, the family do not make that choice!

Sorry OP I think YABU too.
I would like to see presumed consent for organ donation unless you have explicitly opted out.
I also think that we should be pragmatic and explore how best to manage the death of fatally ill or injured people so as to give the best chance to harvest organs.
There are too many people dying through a lack of usable organs and I think it's worth exploring if this can be reduced.

I think you need to put the tabloids down.

''Well she did wake up and she was no vegetable. Would they have harvested her organs under these new proposals, I think so.''

And no, they wouldn't have taken her organs as she wasn't dead!!!!

I cannot be a donor, but if i could would happily allow my organs to be taken whilst alive.

As long as pain relief was used i would feel that same about my children.

I have had a close friends child die through want of a donor and think that it is madness to not have a better opt out system, to prevent these deaths.

There is one on the survey that terrifies me

"Review end of life care practices that conflict with the possibility of organ donation"

That seems to me to be suggesting that rather than focusing on the person who is dying, helping them, the team should be doing whatever it takes to make sure that their organs are in the best possible state, even if that means the person currently in possession of the organs suffers! That's terrifying.

However. The other things -keeping people on life support, once brain dead, in order to preserve the organs - seems sensible to me rather than waste organs if the person has indicated that it is their wish to donate.

Looking at ways to increase the time an organ is viable - good.

Priority for transplants to those who are willing to be donors - no problem at all with that either.

An opt out system - sounds good to me. As long as there is a big campaign about it, and things like when you see your GP, they bring it up, so that you are aware. Having it on your driving licence - which currently has to be renewed every 10 years - gives people another opportunity to choose.

Increasing the number of beds in intensive care, as required - good

financial rewards to hospitals for each organ they transplant - well, that's only a problem if you think that hospitals will kill people in order to get the money for an organ. Do you think hospitals will kill people in order to get organs?

That's not the sarky question it comes across as my husband actually believes that they won't try as hard to save you if they think they can have your organs I disagree with him, but he is not alone. Some people truly believe that and it demonstrates that there is work to be done educating people.

What if you are mentally disabled, have learning difficulties, illiterate people, people with alzheimers, the elderly, homeless people who have trouble accessing services or don't have people to advocate for their wishes?

Every single person has a right to opt in above a certain age in this country, why do more people not opt in then? Presuming all of the people who wanted to have opted in, that means no one else wants to.

As for useless organs, what about people with 10 bedrooms for 2 people, people with acres of land they don't use like the rich, with 4 cars? Why don't we just take those as well? They are useless too, we don't because they are people's property, but it is ok to just take people's organs!

What about Alder Hay, people were outraged at the time, should we ignore the historical evidence that some people are not happy with that.

Oh and they are also talking about taking people's organs earlier while they are still on life support to give the organs a better chance of survival. They are not neccessarily going to wait half an hour for people to die.

It is ok if you agree, but what about the rights of people who don't?

Why don't people just opt in?

Totally different thing.

You are accusing medical professionals of deliberately killing people to steal their organs. I'd class that as bonkers scaremongering, yes.

You're also lying.

Because there are people who don't much care either way, who can't be bothered to opt in but who wouldn't be bothered to opt out because it's ok with them to take their organs.

Never underestimate the power of apathy!

People who feel strongly would opt out. People who don't care wouldn't bother opting out just like now they don't bother opting out.

I would hope that there would be a great deal of thought given to vulnerable people and the best way to proceed in such cases.

And not making any sense. Nobody will take organs without consent, so what it all the wittering about the rights of people who don't want it? If you don't want to donate your organs, nobody will take them.

Op do you know what happens during a organ harvest?

OP please stop acting the innocent, you have a shitty scaremongering, tabloid agenda. (Albeit a very stupid, poorly argued one)

ZhenThereWereTwo, thank you for highlighting this excellent piece of work by the NHS.

I am about to fill in the survey and will commend the idea of doing all that we can to increase organ donation whilst of course considering the best interests of the donor.