To think teaching languages in primary school (the way we do it) is a waste of time?

[Condover]

Or is it just my DC's school?

DS1 is just finishing Yr6 and DS2 Yr4. Throughout the school they have been "learning" Spanish. This is taught by a good HLTA, but she has lots of other duties in the 10 class school and takes each class for Spanish for one session a week, but only for half a term at a time. DS2 has done Spanish weekly this half-term, but not last and he did the half-term before iyswim. DS1 has done no Spanish in the build-up to SATS (not tested) and none since, as they don't appear to have done any actual school work for weeks.

Anyway they can both say hello & goodbye and count to 10 and they know a couple of songs but that's about the extent of 4 years' learning for DS1 (bright boy all 5s in SATS). He goes to a (local) secondary school next year which offers only French and German.

Are all primaries like this? If so, it's no wonder the British are so notoriously poor at languages.

I've always thought the way we teach languages in this country is poor. I'm now 24, we didn't do any foreign language at all in primary. I started to learn German at secondary school at 11, think it was probably about 3 hours a week of German lessons. It's too little too late IMO. I have no idea how I got a B in my German GCSE, I can't remember any of it now.

I think kids should be learning languages properly from when they first start school. It will sink in better and they will enjoy it more.

Yep, it's a disgrace, the state of language teaching in UK. Shocking if you compare to how English is taught abroad from an early age. And, no, it isn't jsut about how you can ask the locals for beer when on holiday. And the old chestnut that 'everyone' speaks English. You learn a lot about other cultures and history from talking to locals, understanding how the language developed, etc. aargh, time to get off soap box, baskets.

ds2 is 6 and speaks french beuatifully! He corrects my prounounciation (sp?).
He was taught as soon as he started in reception.
DD went to a different primary and they did not start learning french until y4 i think. She has however bee learning german for a year at secondary school and has picked it up really well.
DS1 is taken out of french for one to one support. I don't mind as believe that he needs to learn how to read and write in english before he can in french.

forgot to add, each time we visit a country we try to get the dc to practise the language before we go:even if its just hello, goodbye, please, thankyou, yes and no.

I agree, I'm 23, learnt French and German from years 7 and 9 respectively but couldn't say one word in German and know extremely basic French. The way they're trying to play catch up with other countries on the language front now is ridiculous.

You are honest confused. And modest. So many people are like you and call themselves 'fluent' and even... 'bilingual'.

The thing is that learning a second ( or even third, forth or fifth) langauge is not statutory in primary schools in England. I'm not aware of the requirements in Scotland or Wales or NI so I can't comment on that.
The curriculum in English Primary schools is full to bursting and each subject wants its time. I am/was the MFL co ordinator for the primary school I work in and while a MFL was going to be a requirement money was put into the subject. I was allowed to order resources, I was sent on training courses and I delivered training courses in school too. People were expected to teach French and they were observed and their planning scrutinised to ensure that they did. Then the curriculum was changed and the statutory requirement for a MFL was removed. In an already over stuffed curriculum MFL began to slide.
I am the MFL co ordinator for our school because I love languages and I have an ear for them. I speak French well but didn't progress beyond O level at school. I have no formal language qualification at all but I was willing to take on the subject. Many of my colleagues have no language knowledge at all.
I agree that we lag behind in our languages teaching but I have also experienced the way English is taught in France at primary level and the experience I had was not all that wonderful.......
IF we are going to teach a language at primary level then it needs to be properly invested in, we need specialists who come into schools who know what they are doing, we need dedicated time on the time table and we need the reosurces needed for all that training and time.......
When MFL was going to be statutory it was to be an hour 'equivalent' a week - I spent a long time working out how long registration was because if we answed the register in French that would count... as would singing a song in assembly... This was because what with th 5 Literacy hours, 5 numeracy hours, 2 1/2 hours of Guided reading, 2 hours of PE/Games......... there wasn't enough time left in the week for a French Hour.........
So, yes, what we do isn't good enough......

Couldn't agree more. The French my 2 learn at primary school is ridiculous and a complete waste of time.

A friend of mine is a primary school teacher and expected to teach Spanish. She does it even though she has absolutely no qualifications other than having done one of those book & tape courses ages ago...

Socks, I though it was compulsory for the school to offer a language, but feel the fact that it's done in such a half-hearted way makes it pointless.

If it's not and it's not and it's not tested in SATS why do they do it?

DDS school don't do it that way. She has 2 lessons per week and other activities based around it.
Dd (8) speaks french extremely well, better than i did at 16.

Laquitar: I know, it's quite entertaining! Especially when these people are faced with speakers of that language who claim their English is 'basic' but is actually perfect!

I wish I were fluent in another language, and am working my arse off now trying to learn my father's language and bits of French when I can, but surely the opportunity to learn when younger would have been much better?

I remember picking French up so quickly in school, by the end of year seven I was reading/writing French at top-end GCSE level and speaking it at low GCSE level (I would spend lunch-times and after-school sessions sitting in on GCSE sessions, this wasn't just from lessons!), but the moment I changed schools at the beginning of year 9, to one which felt languages were not a good use of time and they never offered extra-curricula activities in language subjects, my levels dropped within a term and by the time I finished school I scraped a C at GCSE.

In my kids school EVERYTHING and I mean literally EVERYTHING is labelled in Spanish and they are encouraged to ask questions in Spanish if they have the vocabulary and/or use the Spanish word over the English.

I have to ask though, why has Spanish suddenly become all the rage? Whatever happened to learning French? None of the secondary's round here teach Spanish so once they leave primary they won't use the skill again.

My dc get a one hour Spanish lesson every week with a teacher from spain. So I suspect that the standard is better than many schools. Saying that, I think the pace is very slow and faced with a Spanish person, my dd could tell them her name, her favourite colour and sing a couple of songs very enthusiastically.

They can pick Spanish or French in high school, so it's a good grounding for that, but I don't expect them to be fluent for a good while yet.

I am a secondary MFL teacher and in my school we have been going into our feeder primaries and delivering 1 hour a week of specialist tuition to years 3-6. Until last year we had pupils do GCSE in 1 year in year 9. Of course, now we are an academy the 1 year early GCSE has gone out of the window. The primary tuition remains the same.

Agree - ds Y1 is learning spanish - he knows the same three phrases he did last year - I could have taught him more. And if they can't find a spanish teacher next year they'll switch to another language. I'm underwhelmed.

I'd prefer one language taught well from reception - do it properly or don't do it at all.

Trouble is, as never says, there is just no time to teach a non-statutory subject when there is already hardly enough time to teach all the statutory ones. And the level of skill in, and enthusiasm for, languages, varies wildly from teacher to teacher. If you can barely speak it yourself it is always going to be the first thing to go in an overcrowded week, especially as it is not obligatory now. That is set to change next year (I think) but time will have to come from somewhere as it is not really possible to shove another statutory subject in without taking something else out somewhere.

Condover, If it's not (compulsory?) and it's not tested in SATS why do they do it? - are you suggesting that primary schools stop teaching everything except Literacy and Maths? They are the only things tested through SATS now.

Although it won't sound like it from my post, I am passionate about languages and thoroughly enjoy teaching French to my primary class, but I simply can't find the time to teach it every week. I (and the school) am judged on the progress my class make in reading, writing and maths so they get taught daily. PE/Games and RE takes up another obligatory 3 hours a week. Once I have also managed to fit in art, DT, PSHE, topic work (Humanities), ICT, music (all of which form the National Curriculum and are therefore compulsory subjects) and daily assemblies (also compulsory), there is little, if any, time left.

It is a great shame as I think, like others have said, that learning a language is imperative in the modern world, as well as being a good way to begin to appreciate cultural differences, but if it is to be taught effectively then the school has to buy into it wholeheartedly and go pretty much bilingual - label everything in the second language, do the register and common daily tasks in the language, train the teachers fully (or buy in specialists although that will disempower the teachers who would do the registers and other tasks in the language) - a total immersion route.

Fingers crossed it happens sooner rather than later!

No I'm not suggesting only maths and English is taught Yomping, I wholeheartedly wish they'd stop teaching to the tests - DS1 did nothing except practice papers for a full term beforehand, no PE/music nothing and has done no academic work at all since.

But, the way they've "covered" Spanish in his school has been pointless and the time and other resources could have been better used doing almost anything else. He can't speak Spanish and won't recall the little he does know as he can't continue it in secondary school.

Meant to add... so no, YANBU, I agree, it is a bit of a waste of time - just wish it was different.

DC's (otherwise excellent) school is much the same except they switch languages every year . They can pretty much say "Hola!" and that's it.

Condover - It was going to be compulsory. The Languages Framework was brought in and primary teachers were trained, I think 2011 was the year it was to become statutory..... then we got the present Government and they threw out everything, including a language being statutory.......
It is likely to become statutory in the future but if it is to be successful then it HAS to be done properly........

Language teaching is a fucking crime in this country. The expectations are so low. You can pass a languages degree and only be able to speak holiday foreign.

Not a complete waste of time but totally half hearted and not delivered in a way that suggests any serious intention of achieving any reasonable standard of the language, ever. Which just about sums up the approach to learning languages in schools in this country. A bit of a laugh.

Agree, it's a waste of time at primary. You can't expect primary teachers to teach a foreign language as well as the other 101 things they are expected to be experts in. Leave it until secondary when lessons will be taught by someone with a degree in the language and more than a passing interest. The Primary NC is full to the brim - leave it alone!!

And I'm glad Spanish seems to be overtaking French, it's more relevant.