Not understand the benefit of having a qualified teacher in school nursery

[ReallyTired]

How is a school nursery better than a day nursery or pre school? Surely all the children learn through play. Why is a qualified teacher better at supervising a bunch of tots than a nursery nurse.

Are outcomes for children in school nursery better than private nursery/ pre school?

Everything is taught through play and there is no formal teaching. Why is better to have qualified teacher rather than more nursery nurses? Many nursery nurses have substantial qualifications in childcare. Surely the important thing is to have someone who is hands on who will play with the children rather than endlessly making boring notes.

Seven years ago my son had a mixture of teacher directed and child directed activites. Why is it deemed so wrong for a young child to be taught something?

I find myself agreeing with tiggytape again!

Did you even read the standards link I posted above, OP? I doubt it, people generally don't like to have their uninformed opinions challenged.

What makes you think 'early years practitioners' don't get down and actually play with the children?

Most private day nursery are looking for early years qualifications now my ancient NN qualification is well out of date i would have to retrain to do nursery work again .

My ds's have gone to both private day nurseries and pre-school attached to primary school. IMO the pre-school was miles ahead. More inventive, more professional and did a huge amount to prepare my ds's for school. So much more creative and lots of fun!

This obviously must vary from setting to setting. And also it may be that I just liked having one overall feel to the school. So I understood how things worked a bit better before ds1 started reception.

"What makes you think 'early years practitioners' don't get down and actually play with the children?"

The child to teacher ratio in a school nursery is far greater. It is much harder to give individual attention when you have so many children to look after. There is only so much one human being can do.

"Whether an early years qualified teacher gets more out of the children than a team of really great and experienced level 3 preschool assistants, I'm not sure. I also worry about having less adults around to assist the play in a school based nursery. I think 1:8 is probably about right, even if you have a teacher, but I guess finances have a bit to say in that. You could employ about 3 or 4 level 3 preschool assistants for the cost of 1 teacher. (Don't get me started about the rights and wrongs of that. )"

camdancer, that is exactly my point. Is there any research to show that employing a qualified pre school teacher achieves more than 3 level 3 nursery nurses for the same number of children?

It has to be remember that an experienced level 3 nursery nurse is a skilled person. Certainly in private settings many level 3 nursery nurses do plan activites. Learning does happen in private nurseries.

Which gives better results a high adult to child ratio with less qualified staff or a low adult to child ratio with a qualified teacher. Would a school nursery do better to have 5 level 3 nursery nurses instead of 1 teacher and 2 nursery nurses for 30 children?

Why don't you volunteer for a day? That way you can see exactly what goes on and ask all the questions that are bothering you! :)

The school my DD will be going to doesn't have a pre-school, so I assumed DD would have to stay at her private day nursery and we'd just get 15 hrs fees knocked off the bill. Am I wildly over-simplifying things?

That is what my friend did tiggy she still worked but did her degree part time, she is passionate about her job she works preschool , i got my qualification in 198 and it really is out of date,

you can keep your dd in her nursery but id imagine they would have a preschool room or group stress and you would get your free hours

Yes there is a pre-school room for those who already attend the nursery and a room for those who only use it for the free hours.

I know, why dont we stop having teachers in reception as well?

I mean my dd has a teacher and nursery nurse in her reception class, but surely we could save money and leave the teacher and have 3 nursery nurses instead?

MY dd had a nursery nurse in primary 1 we dont have reception up here , but she works with the nursery up to pirmary 2

I think the issue is that qualifications don't always guarantee quality. From the 18 year olds who have their level 3 but just dump toys on the floor so they can chat to their friends to fabulous, experienced preschool practitioners who do great work with children. Or amazing passionate teachers who adore the challenge of teaching preschoolers using learning through play to a very harrassed teacher who really wanted KS1 but got "stuck" with Early Years.

But, I'd be more confident of the quality of a teaching qualification than of a level 3. And if you look at the latest report by Nutbrown into preschool qualifications I think that is what was found. So although there are some amazing level 3's out there, there are also a lot of very, very poor ones. (I've been interviewing recently so I speak from experience!)

The reason you are getting a bit of a pasting is because it sounds like you are saying preschool education is just babysitting. It is soooo much more than that.

My children had an amazing state nursery education, and I had as much to learn as my children.

I think part of the problem is confusing nursery education with childcare. More people use the free hours for childcare and have a pattern of hours to suit their work, rather than a pattern of hours that help the nursery school provide consistency in their groupings of the chilren. This in turn means it's harder for the nursery school to encourage involvement of parents in the work of the school.

After my involvement with the school, giving my support with volunteering and on the Friends Committee, I have no doubt that a school nursery is far superior to a day nursery, but then again I wasn't looking for childcare.

My amazing state nursery school now has no Friends Committee, because so many more parents are using it for childcare and aren't free to help and volunteer.

I know that pre school education is more than baby sitting. DD has learnt a lot at private day nursery. My dd has a lovely keyworker who is in her forties with the old fashioned NNEB qualification. She has been brilliant with my daughter.

DD nursery also has a young apprentice who is doing level 3. This girl is a natural with the three year olds inspite of only being 18. I think that a certain level of maturity and patience is required for the early years. I think that apprenticeships are a good way forward for nursery nurses.

My concern is that it in a school setting it requires 2 people to change a nappy because of county rules on child protection. If two nursery nurses are changing a nappy then that leaves one teacher with 29 children. I feel that if school nurseries are (quite rightly!) going to take children in nappies then they need to employ more staff. If the school employed an apprentice along side existing staff then it would be easier to manage nappy changes.

It would be interesting to know at what age other countries start using qualfied teachers rather than nursery nurses.

The very small number of children in nappies in the Foundation stage is not really an issue.

"The very small number of children in nappies in the Foundation stage is not really an issue."

The headteacher told the parents that his nursery aged son was still in nappies and that he was sympathetic to children in nappies.

Lots of three year olds aren't toilet trained. I know an August born boy who doesn't have a clue about the toilet. I can't see him being reliable about the toilet in 8 weeks time. Many boys have no interest in toilet training until three and half years old. In fact the school has a special changing area for nappies and toilet accidents.

If school nurseries are going to take children after their third birthday then toilet training will be an issue requiring more staff. Other state nurseries in the area insist on the parents coming in to clean up the child.

I am glad that dd's school nursery does not leave any child to sit shit for hours, but I do wonder how they are going to manage the logics of cleaning up a child and looking after 29 children.

Hmm, interesting. For my DC to start playgroup and not be dry at the age of 2 and a half would have been an issue and a possible reason not to be sending them. Are there really that many children not dry by the age of 3+, or at least working towards being dry that addtional staff need to be drafted in? Certainly a school nursery wouldn't have one teacher looking after 30 children.

ReallyTired - I know that in the Scandinavian countries as well as Australia you need to do a degree to work in a nursery, and that applies to all the practitioners.

The Nutbrown review is all about early years qualifications - in short the more qualified the practitioner, the better outcomes for children.

My DS's day nursery does employ a full-time teacher. She leads on the teaching and learning across the ages and stages. Its not just school nurseries that employ qualified teachers.

I don't really believe there is a need for a qualified teacher in a pre-school. The level 2/3 qualifications are very much taught in a way that give nursery staff the knowledge they need to plan well within the EY curriculum.

My DSs pre-school, at which I am heavily involved, have a number of level 2s, 3s and some with management level 3's. They are really experienced and provide a fantastic learning experience for the children. They differeciate really well and ensure the children are challenged and progress well. I really can't see how they could improve on that.

The average ratio is 1:6 as they have a mixture of 2-4 year olds. I would much prefer this than the 1:15 ratio for a qualified teacher for my 3 year old.

Thats not to say that a setting with a qualified teacher isn't just as good, I just think it is not a necessity.

50shades in wales (different regulatory board) you have to be level 4 to be management/own a nursery. It changed from level 3 a couple of years ago but you may want to check they haven't where you are just in case.

No in England this hasn't changed as yet. It was supposed to be changing by this year that you had to have someone with the Early Years degree (I'm not sure of the exact name of the qualification) but that was thrown out.

I think it really depends on the quality of the staff and like someone mentioned above there are some fabulous NNEB/Level 3 staff out there who do an amazing job!

I'm studying for my Early Years Professional Status & I am fairly certain by the time I have achieved it - it will be out of date

4 years ago when I started my degree all nursery managers had to have a degree by 2015 - then they changed their minds

I get so confused