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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Smart children suffer in mixed ability classes.

75 replies

SusieQTip · 04/07/2012 14:27

My daughter goes to oversubscribed secondary school which has quite a defined streaming system and recently this has caused furore going into the second year.

Within the one year there are five tiers grouped according to ability in key subjects and there is a lot of difference between what a student in the bottom group studies compared to one in the top tier. For example the top group might read A Midsummer Night's Dream in the class and go and see a traditional performance while the bottom set would watch it video and then go out to the forest and have work groups about the material.

A number of mothers of children in the lower tiers have really started kicking off about wanting everyone to be taught in groups of mixed abilities. Apparently the current system is unfair, elitist and ends up with their children being written off at a early age.

Am I being unreasonable to think that any change would end up being highly detrimental to children in the higher groups? I admit that my daughter is in the top group, but I still think that the more able children would be the only ones to suffer.

OP posts:

cory · 04/07/2012 17:35

I went to school in Sweden: no streaming and setting only for a very few subjects from the start of secondary. I don't think I suffered particularly; I believe I was quite bright but not very sensitive- the two don't always go together. I just wasn't fussed, I assumed I would spend my life reading all the books I could lay my hands on and learning as many languages as possible, didn't really need anyone to motivate me, at least not at school.

Otoh I have been quite pleased with the way setting has worked for my two dc at different ends of the ability spectrum.

The moral, if any, being that at least some children are adaptable.

Hullygully · 04/07/2012 17:41

I want to go into the forest.

Are Latvian forests nice?

I'd much rather do that than read the deadly Shakespeare (speaking as an English grad)

Metabilis3 · 04/07/2012 17:42

@blueflyer plenty of kids are exceptional at everything they study at school for GCSE (if, for example, they are shit at art then they don't be doing art GCSE)

WilsonFrickett · 04/07/2012 17:45

As the parent of a child with a mild SN, he'll probably be in the lower to middle sets at high school. If I found he'd been plonked in front of the telly to watch Shakespeare as opposed to making some sort of effort to read the bloody text, I'd be kicking off too. Dumbing down is unfair to kids who deserve to be as stretched and pushed as the those with naturally higher abilities.

Metabilis3 · 04/07/2012 17:46

Is there actually anything to stop all the kids from reading the play, though? If they want to?

cory · 04/07/2012 17:47

Hully exits pursued by a (Latvian) bear.

jandymaccomesback · 04/07/2012 17:50

Two of my children went to a completely "set" school. One was in the top set for everything, the other in the bottom set for everything. Both of those children had their needs met well. The one who suffered was the one who was in a school where children were only set for Maths and everything else was mixed ability. Being a fairly average kind of student the poor ones got lots of help, the teachers liked to stretch the bright ones, and being fairly quiet he got ignored.
Setting is better than streaming, where children can be in different sets for different subjects, whereas with streaming they are in the same band for eveything.

Hullygully · 04/07/2012 17:52

God Shakespeare's boring tho.

WHY do they still make kid's read it? Could at least update the language.

Othello

"Oi Desdemona you filfy slag innit? I'm gonna have to kill you an that. Oh you wasn't at it. Whoops."

The end.

Midsummer Nights

"Fuck me I've grown a donkey's head. There's some fairies. We're all a bit mixed up. Oh we're all right now."

The end.

WilsonFrickett · 04/07/2012 18:00

nooooo Hully!

As long as men can breathe and eyes can see, so long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

LynetteScavo · 04/07/2012 18:02

DS1 goes to a secondary where they don't set in Y7, then only set into "higher2 and "foundation" in maths and English from Y8.

It seems to work well (according to schools GCSE results).

DS1 is very able, but anxious, and being taught with the same 30 DC for every lesson was an absolute life saver for him. He certainly doesn't seem to have suffered.

Hullygully · 04/07/2012 18:03

Wilson - all right it's got the oidd good line, but overall...

And don't get me started on the history plays

WilsonFrickett · 04/07/2012 18:06

Oh aye, I'll give you the history plays. They can only be forgiven for my favourite slogan ever (outside an outdoor shop): 'Now is the winter of our discount tents'.

Metabilis3 · 04/07/2012 18:07

Richard II on the telly the other day was good. Although it went downhill a bit when Mark Anthony got banished. And downhill even more when Picard shuffled off. But it wasn't dull.

Hullygully · 04/07/2012 18:07

oh that's good wilson

BlueFlyer · 04/07/2012 18:12

I liked Richard II the other day because I like Ben Whishaw as an actor. I am going to watch the next one, Henry IV or whatever, but Ben Whishaw isn't in it so I am lowering my expectations.

DD quite likes the Baz Luhrmann version of Romeo and Juliet.

Metabilis3 · 04/07/2012 18:26

I took DD1 to see Much Ado about Nothing last year, starring David Tennant and Catherine Tate. She adored it (it was utterly fabulous). She is also very fond of the Twelfth Night film with Toby Stephens and some other people whose names I forget because I spend all my time looking at him.

BlueFlyer · 04/07/2012 18:31

I did hate Shakespeare at school and I think that is because we always read it rather than ever seeing the plays performed. I do like a lot of them now. I want to see the film of the Tempest - Helen Mirren, Russell Brand and Ben Whishaw again. So I'm keen on my kids seeing the plays first before they read them, if possible.

frustratedpants · 04/07/2012 18:31

Trouble with setting in English is that you end up with one lower ability set with a mix of some kids who want to learn but struggle grouped with kids that are fully able to do the work but don't give a shit want to. Which isn't fair on either the kids nor the teacher.

LadyFerret · 04/07/2012 18:35

Skinhead Hamlet

holyfishnets · 04/07/2012 19:33

As long as all the levels are taught well, I can't see the problem with streaming for most subjects. However it is good to mix abilities sometimes I expect, with the more able taking the lead and supporting the lower ability kids. In mixed ability classes thought, the quiet well behaved hard working middle ability kids suffer as teachers concentrates on the top and bottom end - and the louder kids.

VolAuVent · 04/07/2012 20:08

YANBU. Children should be educated with others of similar ability, whatever that happens to be.

I don't think it's fair for the more able to have to "support" lower-ability kids at all. Where's the equivalent help and support to stretch the more able?

loopyluna · 04/07/2012 20:24

I've just changed my son's schiol because of this. DS is a fairly bright but lazy boy. He's extremely confident and a great "orator" (according to his school report), so participates well in discussions and dies well in presentations, but is not so hot on written work!
Anyway, as he chose to do Latin this year, and there are only 20 children allowed to do this (don't get me started!), he was grouped together with the 19 other Latin studiers, all of whom had been "selected" study Latin, based on their academic ability.
Unfortunately, the school decided to even things out, by throwing in the 6 or 7 most unruly children in the year! They felt that these children would benefit from the exam

loopyluna · 04/07/2012 20:29

I've just changed my son's school because of this. DS is a fairly bright but lazy boy. He's extremely confident and a great "orator" (according to his school report), so participates well in discussions and does well in presentations, but is not so hot on written work!
Anyway, as he chose to do Latin this year, and there are only 20 children allowed to do this (don't get me started!), he was grouped together with the 19 other Latin studiers, all of whom had been "selected" to study Latin, based on their academic ability.
Unfortunately, the school decided to even things out, by throwing in the 6 or 7 most unruly children in the year! They felt that these children would benefit from the example if the more studious ones...
Of course, this was a disaster. A lot of the Latin students found themselves distracted by the non Latin ones and took on an "if you can't beat em, join em" approach, whilst the struggling non Latin pupils were totally discouraged as they were so far behind in nearly every subject.

So DS is going to a school that streams next year. I think he'll be in a middle class where he will hopefully be taught in a nicer environment.

Adversecamber · 04/07/2012 20:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cory · 04/07/2012 20:45

VolAuVent Wed 04-Jul-12 20:08:57

"I don't think it's fair for the more able to have to "support" lower-ability kids at all. Where's the equivalent help and support to stretch the more able?"

I can't think of anything that has helped me more in my academic career than being asked to help explain things to the lower ability children in my class. It has made me a much better writer as well as a better teacher.
It was the best help and support I could possibly have had. But obviously it should only be done in short snatches. And perhaps only with pupils of the appropriate temperament.

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