To think that religion creates more problems than it solves?

[toptramp]

(Dons hard hat)

I hate all the fighting that goes on in the name of religion. Most of it is about arguing about various interpretations of some old mythical book. Who cares what happens to us in the after life; lets sort out what happens in this life first. All the intolerance that goes on is just so exasperating.

I do think that some philosophies such as bhuddism and suffism are beautiful and I am not oblivious to the more mystical qualities of life but how can any of us possibly know what is out there?

Also when reading about scientology and cults I just think that all the mind control stuff is just wierd. Apparently Katie Holmes is now being stalked by cult members. As a young women my boyfriend was into a cult and I almost got sucked in too. It makes me shudder.

Part of me feels that religion is the buffer against the harsh realities of natural selection and survival of the fittest but then part of me feels that there is a bigger picture and that we need some kind of moral compass to prevent the worst excesses of natural selection.. If only we'd just all stop having wars about it.

Wow deep.

I didn't know religion was supposed to solve problems! Why do you think it should?

Nope. How many people died in the gulags? How many people died under Communism and Marxism? How many millions did Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro etc kill? How many people suffered under the Stasi and the Soviet empire?

Unfortunately even in countries where there is no religion people find a reason to kill and punish each other.

There are no countries with no religion. But even if you look at the "non-religious" regimes, the only difference is that their deity is not a supernatural being, but an individual worshipped like a god or commanding the same following under threat of death or torture (reminding anyone of the Old Testament?). Everything else is the same as an organised religion.

Of course some non-religious people do bad things. But how about the old Christopher Hitchens questions: First, name one good, moral act that a religious person could perform because they are religious which a non-believer could not possibly perform.
This has never been answered correctly and satisfactorily. Secondly, name a truly evil act which a believer has performed precisely because of his or her religion.... You have already thought of one.... And another..... And another.

I'm religious, and I know religion can be a dangerous thing. Of course it can. You could fill hundreds of libraries with all the evil committed by religious people in the name of religion.
Religious feelings are powerful and as such they are double edged. I don't think anybody can reasonnably refute this.
It doesn't stop me having faith, though.

Religion developed as a way of controlling people. It still controls people (and in most cases treats women terribly) in the 21st century

I think it should be illegal to indoctrinate anyone under the age of 18 into a religion. What they do after that age is up to them.

YABU - if it wasn't religion then people would (and do) fight over something else be it money, property or other things. Religion is not the issue - people are the issue and NO religious book anywhere instructs people to fight others - the greatest commandment in the Bible for example, is to love others and treat treat them as you would yourself - if people followed THAT teaching we would not go far wrong.

Religion is an excuse not the cause. While ever people exist they will
Argue, fight, harm and kill each other and the real reason we do this is
In fact human nature and nothing to do with religion, that's just the front to justify it. My religion asks me every day to fight against my own human nature to do the selfish, greedy, inconsiderate, nasty thing, and instead to to the kind, generous, loving and caring thing.
I don't think I'm better than anyone else, I just hope to be a better kinder nicer person than I was yesterday!

..and that teaching could be followed for non-religious reasons too.

Future: Sounds a lovely idea.
So let's imagine educating your children religiously is made illegal. I then take my DS to a clandestine mass, obviously. What happens then? Do I have to pay a fine? Do I get a prison sentence? Do I get sent to reeducation classes to try and save my non existent soul? Is my DS taken away to be brought up by good non religious people?
What would my sentence be, exactly?

and that teaching could be followed for non-religious reasons too.

'could'? It is.

Catus - obviously the idea of parent not being able to expose their children to their own religion is absurd. However, (a) they should also learn about other worldviews so that they are aware that there are other possibilities and (b) schools should not teach any religion as fact.

Grimma: Of course they should learn about other worldviews. That's called living in the world and being part of it. On schools, I'm not sure what to think to be honest but your position is certainly a reasonnable one.

Grimma: Thinking about this some more, I think your point about other worldviews is a really important one. There is in religion a temptation for an entrenchment mentality, as in seeing the world as full of hostility and wanting to cut it off. It is something that often worries me, because it is sterile and can lead to a dryness of heart.

Schools should certainly teach about a variety of religions, and other philosophical/moral/ethical frameworks, and encourage children to develop critical thinking skills that will help them to assess the claims of different viewpoints.

And I agree that no state school should push any specific religion as being true. I'd also go further and not have any worship as part of the school day/week.

And I say those things as a churchgoer and believer!

But I don't think you can forbid anyone from raising their child in their own faith - people raise their children in a context which includes matters of belief and opinion, whether it's party politics or what football team to support, and anyone who takes their own religion seriously is going to teach aspects of it to their children even if they don't go out of their way to "indoctrinate" them. The important thing is not what individuals and families choose to do, but what the state supports, and the messages that gives about tolerance and respect for all beliefs. So long as people can get into "better" schools by pretending to accept a particular religion, there can never be a level playing field.

As an ex-churchgoer, ex-believer - ITA.

Well, maybe except I'd quibble at 'respect for all beliefs'. Anyone has the right to believe what they want, but not all beliefs deserve respect, especially ones which impinge on other people. I'll tolerate Creationists but can't respect their belief. I'm not sure we should even tolerate some beliefs (or at least, the putting into practice of such beliefs) that eg women are inferior or homosexuals need 'curing'.

religion or no religion , FACT the world and in particular the"developed " countries cannot economically survive/function without war. that statement is NOT my opinion it is a world economic fact of all our lives.

Bollocks... of course it'd mean restructuring the industrial-military complex esp in the USA into something more constructive but why do you think it couldn't be done?

Why is it that anything labelled "FACT" is rarely so?