to think the comment, if a child has it in them[ability] the school will get it out of them, is a load of shit

[whiteandyelloworchid]

people say these comments, trying to say doesnt matter what school a child goes to, and that if they are capable, they will achieve

ive heard other comments to of doesnt matter where the chilren go to school, if they are bright they will do well

i personally think, although that would be lovely to think every child has an equal chance in life, its total shit.

take our town for eg.
rough side of town, poor area, gcse pass rates are as low as 16%
the expensive side of town, state school 78%
and the private school
100%

theres no way that only 16% of children living in the poor side of town intelligent enough to get basic gcses or that the kids on the posh side of town are that much more intelligent, its lots of other factors coming into play.
mainly imo parental interest.

So you're then saying it's not the school's fault but the parents'.

Parental support has a huge impact on how well a child does IMO.

I'm sure that I've read that a bright kid will generally do well whatever school they go to provided their parents are supportive.

Humph.

The school matters hugely, IMO. Ours has the same parents as he did at his last school, after all, but is doing far better at this one.

Yep, it all comes down to the parents. It's not necessarily their intelligence - but it's definitely their attitude and encouragement and the type of environment they create.

I have to agree - I work at a primary school in a deprived inner city and we have some very bright children - a small few make it and succeed but the majority live up to the expectations put upon them by family and social groups - ie when they go to secondary school they don't go often if at all, they have to look after kids at home they have the pressure to have a 'hard' image so get involved in fights they are not encouraged to stay at school beyond GCSEs anyway - if it's good enough for your Dad and me it's good enough for you - and aspirations are very low. Even the ones who do go on to do well end up choosing less prestigious universities as they worry about not fitting in.
I believe it is as hard for some children in some families to go to university as it would be in middle class families to drop out of school at 16. It's all to do with family/ social expectations and since we are the least upwardly mobile country it's not surprising.

YANBU, this is something that annoys me too, especially in the whole grammar v comp debate.

It seems to me ridiculous to suggest that the school environment doesn't affect educational outcomes. Of course it bloody does!

Some schools are basically useless too, and no matter how bright a child is, if they cannot study, they won't learn. If there are disruptive pupils who constantly interrupt lessons, and/or bully others, or the school has hardly any resources, every pupils education will suffer because of it.
Some children can do well anyway, if they are really dedicated, have parental support, and basically educate themselves, but a crap school is a hell of a disadvantage to overcome.
Some people also have no real choice over where their child ends up going to school - all this bull about freedom of choice and decisions by the parents is bollocks in many areas, there is no choice.

YANBU - I absolutely agree. I think if the school is awful but the child is bright it is pretty much hit or miss as to whether they achieve well or not.

I was at an awful school and did pass all my GCSEs but was capable of a lot more, many of my friends did badly in spite of being extremely clever, they were just mixing with an awful crowd as well as a lack of support at home.

I don't think there is any 1 factor that means a child doesn't achieve but the school must play a huge part in it.

My 2 boys will be going to a non-selective independent school - they still score 100% A-C at GCSE whereas the closest school (about 2 mins in car) is around 34%. I know its not directly comparable but it can't just be the kids?!!

I agree parental support also plays a part but I can only assume that the people saying that it is the only factor must live near good schools? It is not just private schools that do well of course as there are namy state schools that have 70-80% exam passes (in a place I live no where near ) .

rubbish.
for a school to 'work' for children, all the children have to want to learn. you find such schools where parents take a real, sustained interest in their children's education. you have to select your school very carefully. and often, pay for it.

Not all schools in poor areas are bad schools but they do have to deal with a lot more problems related to disruption and behaviour as a result of where the children come from. We have several children in our school who spend more time disrupting classes than learning and have numerous intervention procedures to deal with this - but it does affect the learning of others when these children kick off in the class and then have to be dealt with and the knock on effect . We are a good school but the real problem kids who we support and provide all sorts of extra teaching time to come from families who are causing the problems - DV, parental abandonment, social services are involved with all our 'problem' children and we do the best we can to provide them with a secure and caring and supportive environment but we still have to send them back to the near hell that is some of their homes - I have a list as long as my arm of children I want to take home with me - my DC go to our school so it's not all that bad.
The saddest thing is that some of these kids are really quite bright they just don't know it as they have such low self esteem from a lifetime of being told at home that they are no good and not wanted.

YANBU. There's a huge variety between different teachers, teaching styles, schools and their success in getting the best from children at different levels.

I had it in me. My school drove it out of me 30 years ago because of the apathy of the staff and sexist rules re options.

It is slowly coming back.

My Mother thinks I'm precious about my children's education...I wish she'd been precious about mine....

football, i'm sayig lots and lots of factors come into play, but int he rougher areas where only 16% of children leave with 5 gcses, i do not believe thta is down to the fact they are not capable of more.

they are seriously disadvantaged and it pisses me off that some people try and make out if a child is bright they will do well where they go to school.

i wish they all had an equal chance but it is simply not true

Parental support has a MASSIVE impact on how a child (SN aside, don't know enough about that side of things to comment) gets on in school, possibly more so than the actual school they go to, especially in the early years of education.

YADNBU!

Ime many of the people who claim that an able child will succeed regardless of wherever they go to school are just the type whose children that theory would apply to. The people are often middle class, pro comprehensive, sometimes anti independent school, comfortable if not affluent, of a leftist persuasion. They seem to forget about the child on the other end of the social and financial scale, for whom it just doesn't apply.

Hulababy I completely agree in the early years ubt secondary is a different story IMO. My parents supported me hugely and I was terrified to get into to much trouble as I had a lot of respect for them but I was still led astray to an extent but luckily didn't really have to work that hard at school so did well anyway.

My brother was average/slighty above average at school but only managed 4 GCSEs and 2 of those were music and drama which he was naturally brilliant at. My parents supported him the same but due to the fact that he was kind of average, quiet and never in trouble he got missed at school (1100 pupils) and didn't do as well as he was capable of.

spot on gt

That is very true Hulababy

But it is possible for that all to be undone at high school. Parents (if they were bothered in the first place) relax, children have other agenda... if the teachers aren't focused, it's very easy for bright children to fall through the net.

Well said GrahamTribe

I don't agree that children will do ok regardless of the school there are so many other factors but mainly lifestyle and family/parental support.

For example, my children go to a rubbish school, they are both in the top 3 in their years and are doing well. The school and the teachers are important but the main reason they have done well is because we encourage them to be academic achievers and push them academically at home. Are their friends who are in the lowest sets stupid, absolutely not, but they don't do any work at school or at home and their parents seem disinterested in this fact.

I think a child with the right support can do well in most environments.

I agree that it's mostly up to the parents. School can only do so much.

Thinking about a teenager I used to teach, very able, very quick but parents just didn't give a fuck so he fell through the cracks.

I think it happens a lot.

and Mrs S!

I currently live in a town like that and not currently in the good side.

I do hear comments in the OP a lot.

Sometimes it because there are no other options available to the family so you just have to hope the school is o.k and you get the DC through. Comments like this are often said in response to latest bad news about the secondary school. It often also said by parents with DC at the school to other parents desperately trying to find other options for their DC. Its code for I understand the school is shit the teachers demoralized, bullying rife and discipline non existent and I'm hoping my DC bucks the trend but I can't say that as my DC are at the school as we ended up with no other choice.

Other times is a lack of education ambition, disinterest or even hostility to learning from the family.