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To approve of a German courts decision re circumcision

618 replies

SlipperyNipple · 29/06/2012 10:33

Apologies if this has already been covered.

I am Jewish by descent but an an agnostic. I think the time has come to say that being religious is not an excuse to carry out mutilation of small boys.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/27/circumcision-ruling-germany-muslim-jewish?newsfeed=true

Obviously Female circumcision is already illegal but the same protection should be given to boys.

OP posts:
Trills · 03/07/2012 08:46

I agree with Mousy - give people control over their own bodies.

samandi · 03/07/2012 08:48

Pro choice and anti circumcision also ... and failing utterly to see the connection.

tyler80 · 03/07/2012 08:49

To disagree with routine circumcision as babies is pro choice. Choice for a baby to make a decision for himself when he's old enough to do so. Having bodily autonomy is very much pro-choice.

BertieBotts · 03/07/2012 10:15

I find that it seems much more common in countries where circumcision is the norm for uncircumcised boys or men to have problems, whereas somewhere like here where it's uncommon, medically indicated circumcision is really rare!

Why is this? Are doctors in the US so unfamiliar with uncircumcised penises that they are recommending circumcision when it is not necessary (e.g. for a UTI)? Or is it to do with the practice I've heard about (online) where American doctors will advise parents to retract the foreskin (OUCH! It's ATTACHED when they're little!!) to clean underneath it? Surely this is more likely to cause infections and problems, hence the big fear about needing to be circumcised later on.

Pro choice here too :)

squoosh · 03/07/2012 10:25

TraceyWasALoner Anti circumcision = anti abortion???

Where is the logic in that? Genuinely baffled.

I am anti circumcision of babies and pro choice. A person should have autonomy over their own body whether that is choosing to have an abortion or choosing to be circumcised. As in choosing for themselves (not on behalf of their child) when they are old enough to make that decision.

Cookiewise · 03/07/2012 10:35

I am a bit confused about the whole pro-choice/anti-circumcision argument.

Do all those who think abortion is ok/are pro choice not believe that life begins at conception because unless that is the case how can they be for abortion (having an operation to deny the life of another being) yet feel so strongly about circumcision? I would have thought that being anti-circumcision and anti-abortion would be more compatible.

squoosh · 03/07/2012 10:39

Pro choice/anti choice is a whole other thread cookie. People who are anti circumcision of babies and pro choice have explained their reasoning above.

knittynoodle · 03/07/2012 10:49

My in laws attempted to bully me in to circumcising my son at 5 weeks old. I had to be very strong during a period of PND to stop this happening but I was often told I was letting my DP down and should consider his needs (also that my DS didn't love me). I was only considered my sons needs at the time. They even BOOKED it for me/DS with some unchecked butcher who was going to come to my very unsterile house.

I will have to fight to save the boys skin again at age 5. I can only hope this ruling is more widespread by that time. And without the PND my voice will be very loud.

Cookiewise · 03/07/2012 10:53

Knittynoodle - why at 5? What happens then?

knittynoodle · 03/07/2012 10:56

They do it in 5's because its considered lucky. So 5 days/5 weeks or 5 years. Both DP and BIL were done at 5 and DP has ragged scars.

squoosh · 03/07/2012 10:58

Eeek knittynoodle, what religion is this?

Your in laws sound horrendous. Does your dp side with you or with them?

knittynoodle · 03/07/2012 11:07

DP sides with them in really. Because he has been programmed to believe its the right thing to do. He's very hurt that I didn't consent. But until DS gives his informed consent, its final.

They are muslims (who celebrate christmas and easter....)

waterlego6064 · 03/07/2012 11:24

Good for you knitty.

cookie I believe in an individual's right to choose what to do with their own body. Why is that so hard to understand?

Cookiewise · 03/07/2012 11:28

Waterlego - But if you are pro-abortion then you are not giving the baby living inside a mother's body the right to choose whether to live or die and what to do with his/her own body (unless you believe that life doesn't start at conception). So I assumed that people that are anti-circumcision because they believe it is not giving an individual the right to choose what they do with their own body would also be anti-abortion as abortion is not giving the unborn child the right to choose. That is the point I was making.

waterlego6064 · 03/07/2012 11:33

I'm not 'pro-abortion', I'm pro-choice. I really dislike the idea of abortion and doubt I could ever have one myself but then I've never been in the situation of having to consider it. I believe the rights of the mother come before the rights of the unborn child. As much as I wish no-one ever had to have abortions, making them illegal would be a very bad idea, IMO.

TraceyWasALoner · 03/07/2012 12:29

Bertie there are threads on Mumsnet all the time by concerned mothers wondering how to proceed with regards to late circumcision of their sons for medical reasons, questions about how to teach boys how to clean their foreskins and queries about infections of the penis. As this is largely a UK site, I don't think that those problems are unique to North America.

The circumcision decision is a difficult one for parents because it's time sensitive. It's quick, easy and uncomplicated if done early (as a baby) so in this case parents have to make a choice on behalf of their child. My husband and I did our research and worked with the facts and information we had to make our decision. DH (a Masters-educated professional) is circumcised and he's too very happy with his bits and the fact that his parents made that decision for him when he was too young to do so (as are most North American men of his age)...The procedure itself is absolutely in NO WAY like what you seen in those horrible videos that remind me of those horrifying, scare-mongering images propagated by the pro-life brigade. It was performed by a trained, skilled professional in a sterile surgical environment and caused no more distress to my babies than their infant vaccinations, heel pricks or their first baths in the hospital! There is always so much hysteria and frothing over this subject and I think it's possibly fear generated or perhaps because it's an unknown subject matter to most people in Europe? I'm not sure. All I know is that my kids are happy, healthy, perfect little boys (well, most of the time) and the notion that circumcision is child abuse or mutilation is nonsense (I asked my husband whether he thinks he's mutilated...he thought that was hilarious). I can't speak to the issue of ritualistic or religious circumcisions as I have no knowledge or experience of this but I thought it might be interesting to some of you to hear the POV of a non-religious British/Canadian family who chose to circumcise their sons.

Last week my 5 year old fell down on the sidewalk and scraped his knee. He was crying and I had to make a split second decision about whether or not to clean his knee with the "stingy" antiseptic or just leave it as is. I decided that it needed to be cleaned to lower the chance of it getting infected. It was over in a second and I patched him up with a Spiderman band-aid. It was my choice, not his, but I think I made the right call Smile. I'm wondering now if someone might think that was child abuse because I didn't let him have autonomy over his body? Hmmm...

squoosh · 03/07/2012 12:53

You and your husband as people born and brought up on the continent of North America have been culturally indoctrinated into thinking circumcision is the right thing to do.

I'm not really sure what the story about your son cutting his knee has to do with anything. You equate letting a cut become infected with not taking a knife to a baby's penis. Your reasoning is facile in the extreme.

You might want to work a bit harder on your logic there. :) :)

TraceyWasALoner · 03/07/2012 13:20

I was born and brought up mostly in the UK so haven't been indoctrinated into anything Smile Smile.

thebody · 03/07/2012 13:27

I think it should also be illegal to pierce a babies ears so definatly think it's vile to circumcise any child, disgusting mutilation.

Cookiewise · 03/07/2012 13:28

squoosh - How has she been "culturally indoctrinated" what a patronising comment. She explains quite clearly that she and her husband researched it and made a decision after a lot of research and thought and evidently she is not unhappy with her decision.

waterlego6064 · 03/07/2012 13:52

The circumcision decision is a difficult one for parents

It doesn't need to be. I had no difficulty whatsoever in 'deciding' to leave my son as nature/God intended him to be.

squoosh · 03/07/2012 14:00

cookie how is it patronising?

Jewish people are culturally indoctrinated to think circumcision is a necessity.
Muslim people are culturally indoctrinated to think circumcision is a necessity.
Americans are culturally indoctrinated to think circumcision is a necessity.

Most other people in the world who are not Jewish, not Muslim and not North American are culturally indoctrinated to think circumcision is unecessary.

Anyway she's from the UK so she hasn't been brought up to think circumcision is the default reaction to a foreskin. I can only surmise that she discussed it with her Canadian husband and she agreed with his reasoning.

Would her son be circumcised if she'd remained in the UK and married a British man? Unlikely.

Krumbum · 03/07/2012 14:13

What a joke. Cleaning a wound is helping a person. When you had them circumcised you were CAUSING a wound.
It is irrelevant that some men don't mind that they were cut, if you have been told over and over that it's the 'done thing' then you will internalise that. Some women who have suffered fgm don't regret it, they believe the bullshit that it is necessary because that is how they were brought up. Same with your husband, if everyone else does it we better do it too! Even if what it is is stupid. That's how cultural indoctrination works and it causes a lot of harm.

Cookiewise · 03/07/2012 14:22

Squoosh - well firstly, she says herself that she is British (British/Canadian family) so she has not been "culturally indoctrinated" but made the decision after research/discussing with her husband.

And I suppose you could say that you are "culturally indoctrinated" into thinking that circumcision is a bad thing.

squoosh · 03/07/2012 14:24

Hmm, did you even read my post?