To expect teachers to be clever?

[CJ2010]

I was visiting a friend, who has a 12 year old DC and she was telling me how unhappy she was about the school and her DC's education, or lack of. She showed me her child's workbook that contained comments from the teacher. My friend is getting really concerned because her DC's spelling and grammar mistakes are not being picked up by the teacher. She then told me to have a read through and to take a close look at the teachers comments, I did, and they were littered with spelling errors and poor grammar.

It got me thinking. I know a couple of teachers; we all went to school together and are still mates now. One is a primary school teacher, the other secondary. Both teachers only managed to get a Grade C for Maths at GCSE. One of them also got a few Grade D's in other subjects (not English or Science). IMO, GCSE's are a basic qualification and being taught up to GCSE level only really gives a broad, general knowledge of a subject. If they are only coming out as average / or below at this level, regardless of subject, are they really qualified to educate the next generation? They are not very clever are they?

I fear, that this this average educational ability amongst techers is quite common and wide spread. My DC's have yet to start school, but it is worrying for the future. AIBU?

I'm not a teacher, I don't have QT status. However I have thought about going into secondary school teaching. I do currently teach older teenagers (16/17/18/19) as part of my job. I teach them outside of school for a specialist qualification that is equivilent to a GCSE.

My spelling is terrible, I'd even say it's attrocious but I don't know how to spell it so I won't.

However I do think I'm good at what I do and I'd certainly like to think I'm inspirational. I know that Connexions are very impressed with the fact that I hardly ever have anyone drop out my course and its a long 15/16 week course that requires a lot of commitment. The course is totally voluntary.

I often joke to the teenagers about how bad my spelling is when I write something up on the flipchart and I know I've spelt a word incorrectly.

They don't care. The teens in my group talk about how their weekly session is the highlight of the week, the thing they look forward to the most.

Oh and I do think I'm clever, 9 GCSEs, 2 degrees, working towards a Masters. I just can't spell.

Anyone who wants a job in education needs to tackle their spelling and grammar. Just study it from a book. It's not rocket surgery (as one of my colleagues often says!)

viva, I believe it's people like you who think it does not matter if you cannot spell that undermine all the efforts people go through to teach their children correct grammar and English. I may smile and say carry on to you I you are writing on a white board in front of me but inside I am dying to correct your mistakes and judging your intelligence. I would not employ you for teaching my children if laughing it off is your attitude. It should embarrass you if you can't spell. Not make you proud.
Sorry if this seems like a personal attack. It's not meant to be.

BoffinMum, if the only thing a graduate didn't know was what a noun was, then yes, they could go and look it up. I think my sister's point is that there are so many gaps in her education that it would take a lot of effort and work for her to educate herself independently in the areas she would be teaching.

What a noun is, and various other basic English skills never came up on my sister's English degree because they were teaching other things which she was spending her time learning. Now she has a job and is busy doing that.

Very few people have got the time as adults to independently learn all the basic skills that should be taught in schools.

I am sorry, I don't agree. She could get a Use of English book out of the library and have this sorted in a week or two, if she saw fit. Too many excuses are being made. She is obviously bright, so this should be a priority for her if she is thinking about truly fulfilling her capabilities.

I agree that Viva is being let off lightly. She also sounds intelligent enough to address this problem for herself, and should do so. It is not acceptable.

mega but viva teaches post 16 through Connexions. I think the context of what, who and where you ate teaching, is very important to how much empthasis you put on spelling mistakes

I dont - I think any kind of teacher needs to use exemplary standards across the board, especially when using prepared materials.

Boffinmum, have you been through that process yourself? Were you not taught spelling, grammar and punctuation at school and then learn it in a week or two? I was not taught these things, have two degrees and have put a lot of effort into learning to use English. I am still struggling with it despite having been trying to learn it and teach it to my own kids for years, because it requires a lot of effort to get it right as you practically apply it. It isn't something that it just theoretical - you have to apply it properly.

The reason people used to learn it at school was that they were taught the theory and then when they got it wrong, teachers across various subjects would correct it. That isn't going to happen as an adult. To apply it to all your writing as an adult is like writing in a foreign language. I would have to write everything, and then go through all the punctuation rules one by one to see if I had applied them all properly, because it is isn't instinctive to me because I wasn't taught them as a child. That just isn't practical in day to day writing tasks.

I am a scientist and I also at times have to make presentations to various people and ages. The key to good communication skill is correct use of language. That includes spelling and punctuation. If I stood out there making a presentation to whatever age, with lots of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, do you think I will be effective? I may be a good people person at the same time. I may get on well with everyone and make my verbal communication very funny or exciting. Do you see the difference? I am afraid I judge people's intelligence to a certain degree of they think it's hilarious thy cannot spell. If they are embarrassed, and genuinely make mistakes, like I do often, then it is different. To make it 'cool' not to be able to spell and to say it does not matter in all walks of life is what I do not agree with.

I still do not understand how anyone can emerge with an English degree and not know what a noun is. It's impossible. You could get through an English degree without understanding tenses and moods, but you couldn't get through it without understanding the parts of a sentence. Just think about practical criticism, taking a poem apart and dissecting it.

I'm not proud of the fact that my spelling is so bad. However I am saying that I can still teach exceedingly well even with some spelling errors. Though I do agree that primary school teachers should be able to spell as they're setting spelling tests/teaching spelling. I do think though I could cope with spelling 99.9% of primary school spellings.

My grammar is very good. I cringed on a recent secondary school open day where the main piece of work on the display board had a sentence which included "could of" instead of "good have". I was amazed that the head of the English dept hadn't noticed this.

I'd rather my dd had a teacher who was inspirational with slightly dodgy spelling than a teacher who could spell but was as dull as ditch water. Obviously if a teacher was both good at spelling and inspirational then that would be ideal. Sadly in my experience a lot of teachers have a lot more to worry about than spelling.

Well, I have to say Viva's post made clear coherent sense, whereas I had to read magabored's several times to get the gist of what she was saying.

I think of that is the over riding focus you would be missing the point and disengagimg a lot of young adults

I'm sure your friends would get a much higher grade if they studied for their GCSE's as grown adults. Maybe when they originally took their GCSE's they were having a bad few months or weren't interested in studying when others really grafted for their C grades. I wouldn't take GCSE grades as a predictor of intelligence though. My brother is a lazy arse and got low grades but actually has a mensa IQ. I grafted and got great grades but am dyslexic and can't spell.

I think a teacher just needs to be really good at what ever area they teach - be it science or history at secondary or multiple areas for primary level. There are always spell checks and dictionaries to support the teacher in his/her work.

It must be quite hard for a primary teacher to be good at everything. Given the choice I would rather my child was taught by an inspiring involving exciting enthusiastic teacher who got a 2:2 (and had a good social life outside of college) rather then a stiff teacher who got a first at degree level and lacks interpersonal skills (but who grafted through college with few intrestests or friends)

I also think that one saving grace for me is knowing which words I can spell and which I can't.

So if I'm writing a sentence and think of putting a word in it that I know I can't spell I'll often substitute a word with the same meaning.

I can imagine of someone doesn't realise that they're spelling words incorrectly and all their work is littered with mistakes it looks a lot worse.

megabored - 34 k and for 30 weeks of work, they are earning essentially approx. 60k right?

It's 40 weeks by the way, not 30. The teachers I know also go in during their holidays or tend to put schemes together at home. It isn't an easy job and requires exhausting and intense long hours during term time. I couldn't do it anyway!

holy, okay I thought it was 30 weeks at 6 hr days. My standard hrs are 40 and I get paid for 40hr weeks. However, I too work very hard, often 11 hr days and over weekends. But with only 25 days holiday. My point is that I think maybe teachers do get enough pay for the effort they put in? Or don't they? If not, should they be higher paid to attract better quality people? Does higher pay mean more motivated people? Just playing devils advocate.

I imagine very few teachers work six hour days. I am clearly quite work shy judging by this thread but even I manage at least twelve hour days.

6 hours days? If only! A fairly typical Primary teacher is in school at 8am and leaves at 5. Anything from 1-3 hours work in the evening and a chunk at the weekend. Some do earlier, some later, some do more at weekends, some less. But we certainly do NOT do 6 hour days.

A teacher's starting salary is £21k and salaries have been frozen for two years.

I am very old so my memory may be failing me, but do most teachers not go in with points for having a good degree, so very few would start at 21k. I am sure I started part way up the scale. Not much more but still not 21k.

Teachers also do move up the scale each year, so progression is easier at the start of your career than in other professions . For the first five years or so I was given pay raises for just turning up .

I do think the holidays compensate for those long hours, averaged over the year I do not think I work harder than most other professions .

I remember as a teen in the late '90s, we had a newly qualified science teacher who didn't have the best English skills. She was quite nervous and a group of us clever dicks would delight in putting our hands up to seemingly answer her questions, only to correct her spelling/grammar/punctuation!

okay I thought it was 30 weeks at 6 hr days.

I think this is partly why teachers get such a bashing. If seemingly intelligent people really think that we actually arrive at 9am and run out of the door at 3pm, then we can't win!

If every hour or teaching requires at least half an hour planning and the same again marking and assessing, then it soon adds up. Or would parents rather we just arrived at 9am having done no preparation or marking? The teaching bit is the 'performance' but obviously a lot of work is put in before (and afterwards) to do the job.

Now, someone will come along and say that I think teachers reckon they work harder than everyone else, I expect...

It is difficult filling educational holes as an adult, especially on one's own with a book. I speak as one who is still trying to fill in various holes herself, from geography to physics.

However, if the problem is simple grammatical terms, learn another language. I know that sounds paradoxical, but it does work. I couldn't really remember when to use "who" and when to use "whom", until I started teaching myself Latin.