To expect teachers to be clever?

[CJ2010]

I was visiting a friend, who has a 12 year old DC and she was telling me how unhappy she was about the school and her DC's education, or lack of. She showed me her child's workbook that contained comments from the teacher. My friend is getting really concerned because her DC's spelling and grammar mistakes are not being picked up by the teacher. She then told me to have a read through and to take a close look at the teachers comments, I did, and they were littered with spelling errors and poor grammar.

It got me thinking. I know a couple of teachers; we all went to school together and are still mates now. One is a primary school teacher, the other secondary. Both teachers only managed to get a Grade C for Maths at GCSE. One of them also got a few Grade D's in other subjects (not English or Science). IMO, GCSE's are a basic qualification and being taught up to GCSE level only really gives a broad, general knowledge of a subject. If they are only coming out as average / or below at this level, regardless of subject, are they really qualified to educate the next generation? They are not very clever are they?

I fear, that this this average educational ability amongst techers is quite common and wide spread. My DC's have yet to start school, but it is worrying for the future. AIBU?

OH has a double first and a PhD from Oxford. He's a crap teacher, so it's a good job he didn't choose that as a career. Tried it with undergraduates and failed, only coped with able postgraduates.

Ecolady - I had a shot at those tests, just out of interest

Those tests are for adults? Really? My 12 YO would have aced them. They're ridiculously easy. If that's the bar, then it is set worryingly low.

And ROFL, really ROFL at only having three attempts at them

you don't even get brownie points for being a good person, like nurses do

Really? And there's me labouring under the misapprehension that teaching was a fairly altruistic career. I mean, I teach children to read, fgs. And no one goes into teaching for the money!

I don't think anyone is saying that being clever is sufficient for being a teacher. But I agree that it is desirable.

Whether I would recognise GCSE grades as a valid indicator of cleverness is another matter.

Feenie, you misunderstood me I think. People don't think that highly of teachers. They are not seen as long suffering saints like nurses are. Half the teacher posts on MN are complaining.

Feenie, I give me brownie points and I occasionally get them from a parent or two and a few colleagues. You must admit that we are not seen as angels.

Went to the benchmark test for numeracy, and couldn't be arsed to wait for the length of time they give you to complete baby tests which are suitable for primary school children. Plus the question gets repeated in a very very slow voice.

Went next to the benchmark literacy test which asks you to spell words like accommodate (that was the hardest one).

These tests could be passed first time by any capable 11 YO. Worrying and shameful IMO.

My results on the literacy one -

Spelling - 10/10
Punctuation - 14/15
Grammar - 9/9
Comprehension - 14/14

I must say I didn't think much of the punctuation piece! The heading had a sentence ending in a preposition!!!

So my conclusion from doing those tests is that standards for teaching are really low.

nkf and FallenCaryatid - yes, okay, I get both your points and would agree

I am a primary school teacher. I passed all 12 GCSEs that I sat, all at c and above (A in English, Bs in maths and science). I have a degree in English, a post graduate certificate in education and currently in the middle of a class-based MA research project. I recently received two outstanding judgements from OFSTED.

Sometimes I make spelling and grammatical errors in my marking. When this happens I don't usually even notice until a child points it out, or I spot it weeks later when reviewing my marking. They are NEVER a reflection of a lack of subject knowledge on my part. When you have detailed comments to write in 33 books (double or triple that if marking more than one subject in an evening) some mistakes are inevitable, but no less regrettable. Therefore, YABU to presume that the teacher is not fit for their role on the basis of a few spelling errors. However, YANBU if the errors are consistent and widespread. If this is the case, your friend should be having a conversation with her child's teacher.

To the TA who recognised that the class teacher was giving inaccurate information to the class: I hope that you spoke to her about her misconceptions, thus giving her an opportunity to clarify the children's understanding. If not, you are as guilty of the children's lack of knowledge as she is.

I would also like to clarify that GCSE passes at C and above in maths, English and science are an entry requirement on ALL teaching courses. How your peers performed at secondary school is therefore irrelevant, given that they would have had to re-sit these qualifications before even applying for a place on their teaching course.

Would you expect to fail a test that a teacher should pass then?

I didn't do the tests because I am old. My younger/newer colleagues tell me they are indeed easy. Does anyone fail them and therefore fail to become a teacher? If not, I see no point in them.

I do remember a thread where someone who had failed the numeracy one a few times was being consoled. I did suggest that perhaps she at least brushed to on her maths. It wasn't a popular opinion.

Feenie - depends on the school. A good school and good teacher would do. I would do - as a teacher in the past and a TA now. My colleagues would do. There are some bad schools and some bad or not so good teachers, as there are in any industry/profession. But anyone half decent does their best for ALL the children in their class - and if necessary refers them onwards.

But yes - I agree, it would be very unusual to have a child working at that level. But all teachers should know what to do if they do encounter such children imo.

Feenie Sat 30-Jun-12 09:22:05
I disagree, Hula - if he is working at level 7 or level 8, the school should be looking for extra support for him.

But this is what I said - the school should be still able to set challenging work for such a child. They should know who to go to or where to look to do so.

tearoomtrash - I did speak to the teacher about errors - politely, professionally, sometimes at the time, sometimes after. The teacher has always then gone back and given children the correct information. It depends on what the error is. Both myself and the teachers I have worked with have been quick to admit to children that ANYONE is capable of making a mistake, but it is fine to get it checked, and corrected and to learn from it.

I thought you were talking to me!
Sorry FM, I think that's happened before.

I think if you can get clever teachers who like children and care about their emotional and academic development into the classroom, you have a winning formula. Miss out any of those and you're starting to compromise, sometimes too much.

I also think there's a case for primary school teachers having A Level Maths and English, or equivalent.

Yep, Hulababy, you're right, you did say that, sorry

TheFallenMadonna - I remember that thread! I took the same unpopular view.

No, i didn't expect to fail them. But they were being touted on this thread as something difficult. My point is that they're not. Click into one and see. They are shamefully easy. I might bribe DS (12) to have a go. I would bet my house on him passing it. If that's the bar, then it's too low. Far too low.

LeQ - but equally, a person with an old-style A won't necessarily be able to scrape a D in what is needed now. You can't expect people to be good at a syllabus they've not been taught towards, even if they're all bright. Teaching mature students makes this very obvious - they know very different things from the newbies.

An obvious one is that while calculus used to be on the O Level syllabus, and then when I did GCSE it was an optional part of the coursework you could do to get top marks, and now I hear they've scrapped that. But, when my mum's generation did Maths O Level, they had nothing based on calculators or computers, and so often even the bright ones need some remedial teaching later on.

I am really grateful to lots of my teachers and I think they were amazing.