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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

What legal rights does my ex have re holidays?

35 replies

sensuallettuce · 28/06/2012 20:12

I know there is a legal thread but quicker here.

Ex has sent email asking to take kids abroad to a country they hold passports for V acrimonious split - long and short of it is I don't trust him or his OH and they hate me and the feeling is mutual.

He is threatening to take legal action if I say no (he doesn't have PRO) - does he have a leg to stand on?

OP posts:
AnyoneForTennis · 28/06/2012 20:22

He could easily go to court to get it agreed. Do you think they wouldn't return?

gothicangel · 28/06/2012 20:23

let him take legal action, if your gut is to say no then stick to it, xx

babybarrister · 28/06/2012 20:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/06/2012 20:27

The law on taking a child out of the country

It is a crime for anyone 'connected with a child' under 16 to take or send that child out of the UK without 'appropriate consent'. This is set out in the Child Abduction Act 1984.

To explain:
the people ?connected with a child? are the child?s parents, guardians and people with a residence order or who have parental responsibility
?appropriate consent? is the consent of the mother, the father (if he has parental responsibility), the guardian and anyone with a residence order or parental responsibility, or the leave (permission) of the court

Latemates · 28/06/2012 20:28

How would you feel if your ex told you you couldn't take the children on holiday. Would you email and ask his permission and would you just accept a no without reason?

RandomNumbers · 28/06/2012 20:36

repost in Legal

Of course you'll get quick answers in AIBU but they won't necc be reliable or accurate

ratspeaker · 28/06/2012 22:54

Is it a country within EU ?
Would he take out health insurance?
If he has no PRO can he consent to any emergency treatment they may need abroad? Could he afford such treatments?
Will he really go to court to take them abroad if he hasn't bothered to go to court to get PRO?
Just a few thought to mull before the legal folk can give you a yeah or nay

Original poster
sensuallettuce · 28/06/2012 23:02

It's NZ.

OP posts:
OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 28/06/2012 23:07

More to the point, howold are your children, would they want to go, and is he a loving responsible Dad despite the fact that you hate him? What is it that gives you reason not to trust him?

Latemates · 28/06/2012 23:11

If you were married when children were born or the children are under 8 he will have pr automatically (only issue would be unmarried and children over 8 but he would easily get pr if it goes to court)

Latemates · 28/06/2012 23:12

Op why aren't you answering the other questions?

McHappyPants2012 · 28/06/2012 23:17

without knowing full detail i feel unable to comment.

McHappyPants2012 · 28/06/2012 23:19

*do you think he wouldn't bring them back
*was he violent or been emotinal abusive to you

Spero · 28/06/2012 23:20

Quite possibly he has two legs to stand on, or none, impossible to say on such brief and one sided history. Basic principles of law re children - they have a right under domestic and international law to a relationship with both parents. This will involve direct contact with both parents unless a court determines direct contact is not in their best interests.

Unless you have clear evidence that he will harm them physically or emotionally or he will refuse to return them once they leave the jurisdiction, he will probably get to take them on holiday.

See a lawyer. Maybe also see a therapist. I dont know what he has done but he remains the only father they will ever have and you both urgently need to try to move beyond hating each other. You dont have to be best friends but parents hating each other is often a sure fire way to fuck up their children for the rest of their lives.

Krumbum · 29/06/2012 00:53

So can he just take the kids if he wants? And the op not see them again, the law is fucked up. This scares me that father can take a child from their mother. I'm assuming op is the main care giver, that should count for something.

FlangelinaBallerina · 29/06/2012 07:48

You can apply to the court for a prohibited steps order to prevent the children being removed from the jurisdiction and, if necessary for orders for their passports to be stored at a neutral place (eg solicitor's office) and nobody to apply for any more for them. I second babybarrister's advice to repost in legal not AIBU!

mummytime · 29/06/2012 08:15

If you have any evidence that he is likely not to return the kids (preferably written, but records of threats made or witnesses to such threats), then you can legally apply for him not to take the kids out of the country.

You don't have to agree straight away, so I would suggest going to talk to a solicitor. How often does he see the kids? Has he taken them on holiday before? Is your residency backed up by a court order?

Cockwomble · 29/06/2012 08:18

Answer the questions! Have you any reason to think he'd not come back? Or are you just being spiteful?

PenisVanLesbian · 29/06/2012 08:21

this isn't an aibu. Post in legal and answer questions asked there.

Spero · 29/06/2012 10:20

Krumbum - he is their father. They have a legal right to know him. He can't simply take them away and not return them to their primary carer but the op is giving is no reasons at all to explain why he can't be trusted to take them on holiday. Other than that they 'hate' each other. And, absent any evidence he will hurt the children, that is their problem to deal with as emotionally intelligent adults. If that is beyond them, they need to get help.

FlangelinaBallerina · 30/06/2012 09:42

The problem is Spero that he definitely can take them away and not return them to their primary carer. He has no legal right to do so, of course. And there's no guarantee he'd get away with it if he tried. But it can be done, and is done.

Spero · 30/06/2012 13:50

Yes it is a problem. But if the op genuinely believes that this is likely, she can her case to a judge and get a prohibited steps order.

What links or ties does he have with the other jurisdiction? Does he have a job in the UK? Does he own a home here? Has he ever threatened to abduct before? Is he planning to go to a non Hague Convention country?

These are the issues the op should be thinking about. But just because she 'hates' him is not a reason to veto holiday contact - unless that hatred is built upon identifiable reasons.

babybarrister · 30/06/2012 14:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FlangelinaBallerina · 30/06/2012 16:39

In NZ, absolutely. Let's not pretend it'd be impossible for him to go elsewhere from NZ with them, though.

Spero · 30/06/2012 18:20

Of course it's not impossible. But unless he has family ties with another much dodgier jurisdiction or is extremely wealthy I can't see that it is likely he will disappear from NZ. It is not a simple matter just to move yourself to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia to avoid charges of child abduction if you have no links with those countries, no where to stay, don't speak the language etc

All the op has said is she doesn't trust him. what exactly does she mean by that? She is going to need a bit more to veto the rights of both father and children to spend time with one another.

If he is a Pakistani national who has recently given up his job and sold his house in the UK, I would worry. If he is a monoglot English or NZ citizen, much less worry.

Op needs to see a solicitor, set out all the facts of her case and get some proper advice.