Could Breivik (who murdered 77 people in Norway) ever be described as NOT mentally ill?

[AgentZigzag]

Could someone who deliberately chose to murder 77, mostly young, people for an ideological cause, be classified as not mentally ill?

Surely the act of believing such a thing was a 'necessity' indicates he has mental health problems i.e. that something other people have that stops them killing people wasn't there?

But could the level of planning to do such a thing only possible if a person had a level of 'sound mind'?

Just to pre-empt some points that might come up-
-I don't think mentally ill people are 'nutters' or 'mentalists', and know people with mental health problems are more likely to have violence meted out on them than be the perpetrators of violence
-I don't mean any disrespect to the victims or families of the victims asking the question, I was thinking about the 'grey' areas of mental illness where someone's diagnosis might not fit neatly into a category from the DSM
-I haven't spoken to Breivik or know anything about his mental health, so am not passing comment on whether he is mentally ill or not, but am thinking about a wider definitions of people who try to rationalise killing lots of people.

Does anyone know the process of determining whether someone is mentally ill when they've been charged with a crime in Norway? Am I right in thinking Norway has an inquisitorial system and this would happen before the trial in England?

no1currs

I think assuming this kind of act is down to mental illness is insulting to people with mental illness and takes responsibility away from the aggressor.

I think it is a choice between insane or evil. Good people can't comprehend that level of evil so they conclude insane.

Personality disorders like socio/psychopath diagnosis is not curable, and different to mh issue like anxiety or pnd psychosis.

It is easier for many people to believe that this happened because of mental health issues because then they don't have to face the fact that there are people in the world that are just pure evil. Somehow that is more frightening.

I think he does
probably have a mental illness of some kind but its not the same as him being declared insane at the time of the killings IYSWIM.

I also dont believe it is insulting to people who have a mental illness and i have one. Its quite different to be mentally ill and be a sociopath though.

Dont know what happened to my paragraph there ! I also dont believe in pure evil or anything like that. Theres always a reason. In the case of socio/psychopaths their brains work differently. Its not an excuse but a reason why.

I remember this debate happening at around the time of the trial of Peter Sutcliffe.

I do not think you have to be any particular state of health to be a murderer. It is perhaps chilling, but it is possible for a normal person to be that evil.

My brother is a barrister, he has met people who are so severely ill, that they appear frighteningly normal, in other words, they are clever and articulate and can convince, but are complete psychopaths because a psycopath is clever,articulate, manipulative.
He has also met people that are just plain bloody evil. He says it is hard,but not impossible to work out the differences.

ASillyPhase - it is not true that Personality Disorders are incurable. Many people recover from them.

Things like psychopathy, yes, probably incurable, other PDs, no.

It's perfectly possible to be evil. He may/may not be a psychopath.

I can't decide whether psychopathy is an illness though. Psychopaths brains are certainly neurologically different from the average persons brain. That much is now known.

If it was an ideological thing that you believed in, it wouldn't seem evil or mentally ill. For example, if I was in Germany in 1939 and I killed 77 people, including young people for ideological reasons (ie they are Nazis) or South Africa during apartheid and I was on trial, MH would not be a defence nor should it be. This doesn't defend him, I'm just saying there are situations where we may see killing people for ideological reasons as right. This is obviously not one of them.

Yes other pd arecurable, not narcacissistic and the others previously mentioned due to the nature of the pd, sort if I caused confusion with my wording.

Not sure you did, ASillyPhase, I just don't like to see other PDs lumped in with the meanies :)

I think though with Brevik the claim that he was doing it for idealogical reasons is a smokescreen. I think it was a means to an end for him and that end was (in his warped mind) for 'glory' and in the hopes of being adored by other racists.

One of the initial psychiatric assesments found him to be high in Narcissistic traits (which is also often a feature of psychopathy) so in his twisted thinking he carried out the massacre in order to raise himself above 'mere mortals'.

Seemingly he was also personally vain, getting botox and highlighting his hair etc. He wanted to be caught, he wanted the noteriety.

Yes absolutely you can be sane and kill people - look at what happens when there is a genocide - lots of perfectly ordinary people pick up a weapon and go hunting their neighbours.

Many atrocities are committed by the sane for ideological reasons.

I wouldn't go so far to say Breivik's 'normal' but that doesn't preclude him from understanding his actions were illegal.

Quite right, sorry, as I said sort previously in error.

If you think that he is mentally ill then which specific mental illness do you think he has?

Mental illness and mental disorder are not the same thing, and a personality disorder is not classified as a mental illness. The criteria for diagnosing a personality disorder are descriptive, and quantitative rather than qualitative ie they are about being on the extremes of normal behaviour rather than being due to a specific pathological process.

Dawndonna - what does your brother think the difference is? It seems unlikely that anyone could be described as being 'plain bloody evil' without having some traits associated with psychopathy.

I half hope he'll be found insane, as thats what he'd hate.

No I don't believ he is, or was then, mentally unwell.

Personality disorders - of all kinds - can be worked with to get a level of insight, improved interpersonal and emotional regulation. This includes antisocial personality disorder and bar Kasparov personality disorder.

Personality disorders are not the same think as illnesses such as schizophrenia, PND or Bipolar. People who experience the broad collection of symptoms and display the equally large range of behavioura to meet the PD criteria (which are all wildly imperfect) are no less deserving of sympathy or support than those who have a mental illness. The two are different though.

Psychopath / sociopath - not terms commonly used in UK psychiatry or psychology. Not helpful as, like a poster said above, they remove the responsibility away from the perpetrator - who, in the absence of mental illness, made a CHOICE, and put it onto the label.

I loathe the fact that people who commit truly ev

I fear he has a delusional psychosis. He has some pretty firm unshakeable beliefs which would signify this eg knights Templar etc. I have previously had many many patients with similar beliefs.
I also think he is highly narcissistic.

Does anyone know what his family background is?

evil acts are labelled as 'mad' or 'mentally I'll.

Bar Kasparov = narcissistic by the way!

Interesting topic.

It's interesting also, that he is desperate not to be classed as having a mental health affliction. Does that yearning actually mean he has? IYSWIM?

I agree that there are people who are downright evil and perfectly sane. But as a previous poster highlighted, it is difficult to pinpoint and differentiate.

Its is likely he has an incurable peronsality disorder. I don't believe anyone is the devil incarnate it is due to something in their brain that seperates them from the rest of the human race - complete lack of empathy,guilt etc. That basic human compassion that they're lacking though does make them too dangerous to live amongst the general public. Can they be cured? Only a psychiatrist could answer that. I think the brain is one of the least known areas of medicine and can lead to a lot of mis diagnosis.