to have only just realised the builder's quote was excluding VAT

[Whoneedssleepanyway]

we are nearing the end of a loft conversion. the builder was personally recommended to us and has done a fantastic job, everything to time high quality finish, kept everything clean and tidy, builders have been so polite and kept to themselves.

we asked him to quote for doing our bathroom afterwards and got the quote yesterday which was for £x plus VAT. DH looked at me and said was the quote for the loft including VAT, we looked back at the email and there was absolutely no reference to VAT at all, a detailed list of all the work he would do and the figure which was a round sum. we have paid a number of instalments so far which all have had VAT on them.

I am pretty certain now that the price he quoted was VAT exclusive as if you work out what the pre VAT price would be it isn't a round sum so would be an odd number for him to have quoted, luckily we can afford to pay this but will most likely mean we won't do our bathroom now.

I realise that we should have cleared this up at the start but who is in the wrong here....I thought you had to give the price with VAT or if it didn't explicitly say plus VAT....I just wondered if say we didn't have the money to cover this would we actually be liable for this given the quote didn't refer to it?

I don't want to fall out with the builder over this as he has done a really great job and we want to use him again next year to do some more work for us but this is not an insubstantial sum of money we are talking about.

Yes I'd expect to have to add the VAT on top. Annoying habit in the building trade. (some builders are open to dropping some VAT if there is a cash payment but of course I would never advocate that...)

Not sure actually. Its normal practice if dealing with consumers to make it clear that VAT will be charged or to show VAT inclusive prices (btw I am an accountant but not practiced for many years and currently on mat leave so brain is fuzzy).

I'd repost this in legal, there are some very clever bods there who will know.

I suspect that if you were given a quote (different from an estimate) that made no mention of VAT then strictly speakng you are under no obligation to pay VAT extra as you could have assumed it was included. But it won't do a lot of good with relations with your builder.

It sounds as though you haven't had a proper contract otherwise all this would be specified. You should ask him about the original quote and see if there is anyway he can pass some of it through without adding VAT naughty, but I'm sure plenty of people do it.

By the way VAT is 20% so it's perfectly possible that the fugure could still be a round figure.

Most prices I've had from workmen over the years are ex vat., but it should have been made clear.

I would be the same as you op if a builder gave me a quote for a job then that is the price I would expect to pay inclusive of vat, but I am no expert in these matters.

VAT is a pain in the arse isn't it?

My opinion/experience is that it's fairly common to get a quote ex VAT, and sometimes it's not mentioned at all.

and sometimes the builder will give you the option to pay part of the bill in cash to reduce this

I wouldn't fall out with the guy over it, as you've said he's done a great job. Chalk it up to experience and enjoy your new loft.

I have had extensive work done on my house by different builders over the last 2 years(2 extensions. loft conversion, decorating, joinery, etc) all have been quoted Not Including VAT.

Most of the workers I have known for years and I got mates rates on a few jobs but still had to pay the VAT

Thanks everyone.

Yes Better should have had a contract...!! Will know for next time. Also when I say round figure the number was £x,950 so if that was VAT inclusive the VAT exclusive price came out as £x,960 which is what I mean by a weird number.

I know there is no way he would do a VAT dodge as he does everything by the book, and I wouldn't feel comfortable asking this anyway. Will chalk it up to experience and enjoy the new loft which looks amazing

HE is in the wrong. trust me, i've been there done that with a decorator last year.

i contacted consumer direct who told me that:
builders etc do normally quote ex. VAT. However, that is the norm when dealing with other traders.
when they quote to the public they MUST include in inc.VAT price, and where there is only one price then it is taken to be inc. vat

as I say, I went through this with a decorator who quoted me one rate and then told me I had to pay more.
He was fairly threatening to me, and I got advice from a solicitor in the end who said the same as consumer direct and told me to write him a letter stating that I was paying the bill in full, as quoted, of £XXX and including a cheque for that amount.
Once the cheque has been paid in that is him formally accepting the amount and there is nothing he can then do about it

i think i had a thread on here at the time, will see if it's still on here (might have been in chat though)

I think it is their job to make it clear whether the price quoted is inclusive of VAT or not. It should not be left up to the customer to guess which way this particular builder has decided to gve his quotes.

The builder must have given a price including VAT according to the Consumer Protection Act 1987.

Why would he put +vat on one quote but not the other??? Just ask him how much is owing now? At least you'll know for sure then

As a contractor (not building but similar) you have to state on any quotation whether VAT is included or not. Some smaller operations are not VAT registered but anyone who is has to ensure that the client is aware of the VATable burden up front.

If he has provided you with a quotation but not itemised VAT on it he is/was either not VAT registered or it is inclusive. Pay the man what he's asked for and no more. And make sure you tell him what a good job he's done!

Also, if he wasn't VAT registered then but he is now he can't backdate VAT on invoices.

My DH is a decorator - when he does his written quotes he always states that his price does NOT include VAT as he is not VAT registered. Any written quote should mention the VAT - the amount you should pay is the amount he quoted you in writing........otherwise what is the point in getting anything in writing.

So you haven't actually asked him whether the quote included VAT or not? Ask, don't fret :o

If the quote didn't have 'exclusive of VAT' on it then I'd expect it to be included.

If he's done a fantastic job then I wouldn't fall out with him over it but I would ask asap so that you know whether you can do the bathroom.

I think you will find that most builders quote excluding VAT. Then when you start discussing payment they will "forget" to add it on if you pay by cash. Everyone I know who has has building work has had that scenario.

Paying cash yeah for a small job and maybe they would fiddle a little bit of VAT - I dont think anyone could pay cash for a loft conversion

By BIL is a builder who does conversions etc, he hates dealing with cash as it is so difficult with the VAT - VAT men are worse than the tax man, its just not worth the hassle

I dont think anyone could pay cash for a loft conversion

We did.

We've only been running for 18m but have already been subject to a VAT investigation as we were dealing with a MC building new properties therefore we couldn't claim any VAT from them. Which meant our VAT return was a big fat refund.

Having done one once I'm not keen to do another - and that was with everything above board and legal! If I was fiddling this here and there I'd have been kakking myself!

Iknow - I stand corrected :)

Button - My FIL's building company - who are straight as a dice - were investigated by the VAT people - it made his life a bloody misery, they were merciless. Clients often ask if they can take a discount for cash - they dont - not even on materials.

He should have told you from the start, but in any case make sure that you ask for his VAT number if it hasn't been included on any documentation he has given you so far (it ought to be on any invoice he issues). It has been known for businesses such as builders etc to try and charge VAT without actually being registered which is illegal.

I have never known a builder to include VAT in a quote and I work with them every day. I would, however, expect them to put 'ex VAT' on the quote so that you know.

It seems odd that he would put + VAT on one quite but not another.

maybe the VAT was already inc, you should probably just ask him.

WELL THANK GOD....talk about worrying about nothing.

It seems that the original quote was fully VAT inclusive, so no nasty surprise. DH asked him this morning in a round about way how much we have left to pay him and the figure he gave us takes us up to the round number he had quoted in the email so it is what we thought it was going to be.

Still slightly confused as to why he had one quote with VAT and one with no mention and looked at the interim payments we have made which are just on letter head, no VAT number but do say VAT inc...

Anyway main thing is it is going to cost us what we thought it would. But def a good lesson in making sure have a written contract with everything exactly set out!