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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

In thinking this is a bit didgy

33 replies

Losingitall · 16/06/2012 11:45

A friend of mine working as a teacher part time in a catholic school for 4 yrs.

A ft job came up and he applied.

1 of 4 short listed.

He did not get the job due to lack of experience. Instead they have appointed a newly qualified teacher fresh out of uni.

The dodgy bit - the head asked him why he had ticked "atheist" on his app form as the governors didn't like it!

Now 1stly is it even legal to ask the question? 2ndly seems mightily dodgy to me!

Arghhh reinfirces my belief that religion should have FA to do with education.

OP posts:

squeakytoy · 16/06/2012 11:48

The job is in a catholic school... seems fairly obvious to me that they would prefer someone who is catholic to work there.

AliceHurled · 16/06/2012 11:48

I thought they could? I've see C of E school person specs that refer the upholding the Christian ethos of the school. I totally agree that they shouldn't be able to and that religions should stay well away from school.

Tee2072 · 16/06/2012 11:49

It's not illegal if faith is an important part of the job and I think it probably is in this case.

LaurieFairyCake · 16/06/2012 11:53

How on earth did he even get a part-time job there when he ticks atheist

I obviously agree entirely church/state/education should all be separate.

But my dh (a Methodist preacher/RE teacher/Philosophy degree and 10 years teaching) wouldn't even apply for a job in a Catholic School as most posts require in depth knowledge of Catholicism. Most teachers in the local Catholic school are Catholic. I can totally see why they would have a preference for Catholic teachers.

I also doubt that's the only reason he didn't get the job, it would be unusual for it to be a deal breaker

perceptionreality · 16/06/2012 11:55

I attended a catholic school and it was well known at the time that the head had to be a practising catholic - many of the teachers were also.

My daughter now goes to the same school and she has to go to mass - catholicism is a big part of the school. Parents who don't like this won't send their child to the school.

I think your friend was naive if he thought making his atheism public would help him get a job in a school where catholicism is part of the 'brand' of the school.

TroublesomeEx · 16/06/2012 11:58

I agree that church/religion and the state/education should be separate.

However, given that currently it isn't, it's not illegal to deselect a candidate on that basis as it's a faith school.

Some faith schools expect you to share the faith yourself, some don't mind if you don't but expect you to uphold the faith ethos of the school.

Tbh, I'd be surprised an atheist would want a job in a catholic school - they can be pretty full on.

GrahamTribe · 16/06/2012 12:03

It sounds perfectly understandable to me. I went to a church school - one of the requirements for any staff employed there was that they were practising members of the Church of England. The same applied to the girls.

LentillyFart · 16/06/2012 12:06

Eminently reasonable. I'm surprised that you're surprised.

phantomnamechanger · 16/06/2012 12:06

I dont know of any church school where they do not say something like "applicants will be expected to fully support the chrsitian ethos of the school" - this does not mean you HAVE to be the same denomination, but you do have to support their moral teaching etc - he obviously did not want the job, as an insider he should have known how strongly the governors felt

I think there must be more to this story

Original poster

Losingitall · 16/06/2012 12:11

No no more to it that's it.

He's worked there for 4 yrs never lied about his lack of faith.

He's a good enough teacher for him to get a pt job there and hold it for 4 yrs.

I think it's entirely unreasonable to be discriminated against in this way!

OP posts:

AKissIsNotAContract · 16/06/2012 12:12

It was wrong of them to tell him it was lack of experience that didn't get him the job if this wasn't the case, they should have been honest. Could it also be because NQTs are cheaper to employ?

I went to convent school and my theology teacher seemed to be an atheist. She taught us what we were supposed to learn though. You don't need to be a practicing catholic to know lots about Catholicism. In my experience, many agnostics and atheists who were raised Catholic know plenty about Catholicism. They need to in order to form their opinion against it and argue against family members who question them.

phantomnamechanger · 16/06/2012 13:39

IF he was definitely told he was not appointed beacuse of "lack of experience" when in anyones book, someone who has been known to the school for 4 years should be a good bet, and they have taken on an inexperienced NQT, then this does not tally, there is obviously something to raise with them for clarification. I assume he stays on in his pt role, so its not like they were just looking to get rid of him?

are you sure there is not more to this, like they wanted a specialism in something he has not got or ability to be music coordinator or something else? maybe his pride won't let him be totally up front with you, maybe he gave a rubbish interview, maybe the NQT was an outstanding candidate? who knows. If he really is sure of his facts he could ask his UNION for advice? (rather than MN!!)

perceptionreality · 16/06/2012 14:05

But, Losingit - many of the parents who send their children to the school will be practising catholics. They will prefer their children to be taught by teachers who are of that faith and who will reinforce it in their child's life. That's why they will have chosen the school!

The conclusion of your argument is really that faith schools should not exist. Whether that is correct or not I cannot say...

TheHouseOnTheCorner · 16/06/2012 14:10

Losing it is a Catholic school....they want Catholic teachers because a faith comes into more than knowledge of their subject...it affects morals and lifestyle choices too....I am not Catholic but understand why they want a Catholic.

hackmum · 16/06/2012 14:13

Yes, faith schools (VA ones at least) are exempt from the equality legislation on religion.

Dprince · 16/06/2012 14:16

My dd went to a catholic school for a couple of years. One of her teachers was not catholic and it was a pain. During the pall visit they studied the process of choosing new pope. The teacher had no clue dd (6 at the time) knew more and thanked me later as dd had answered questions she couldn't. Which, imo, is wrong.
They can do it. I think there is more to it than you know.

FairLadyRantALot · 16/06/2012 14:26

Just because the appointed teacher is newly qualified from uni doesn't mean that person could not have more experience in certain areas your friend hasn't.

Btw. what did he tick when he applied for the p/t role? Just wondering as they seemed surprised about him being an atheist.

I do agree though, personally I think religion and education should be separate, however I do understand for those who have strong religious beliefs this is different.

WorraLiberty · 16/06/2012 14:32

It's not just about experience, maybe the NQT was more enthusiastic and maybe your friend is just a mediocre teacher?

Either way, the Governors agreed for your friend to be called to interview and he was 1 of 4 shortlisted.

So clearly he didn't get the job for another reason.

Sandalwood · 16/06/2012 14:32

It's similar with many of the Christian disability organisations - anyone can work for them, but you'd have to be a Christian to get promoted and be working higher up in the company.

robotCS · 16/06/2012 14:38

The NQT may well have had experience within a specific area that the panel were looking for.

Sallykitten · 16/06/2012 15:00

Losingitall I think it's exactly the opposite. The school didn't care what religion he was when they gave him the part time job, why would this suddenly be a deal breaker for a FT job?

He's been at the school four years, if in that time he had proved he was an excellent teacher they would have bitten his hand off regardless of his faith, after all he was an athiest when they took him on PT. It's far more likely in the 4 years he's just been doing something like treading water, or maybe isn't popular with parents or pupils, just isn't a very good teacher or has butted heads with management.

His last 4 years at the school will have been far more important to the decision than the interview process and I would hazard a guess that the reason he's not been taken on lies far more in his previous performance than in anything to do with his faith. It's notoriously hard to get rid of bad teachers and if he's underperforming it may well not be possible for them to get rid of him but they certainly wouldn't give him more hours.

MarysBeard · 16/06/2012 15:02

It should be illegal but it isn't. No religion should be allowed exemptions to anti-discrimination legislation.

perceptionreality · 16/06/2012 15:59

No, I disagree SK - if he was a bad teacher then he would never have been shortlisted in the first place imo.

I think it speaks volumes that he was asked directly about the atheism. Religion is a big deal in catholic schools - much more than you know!

geegee888 · 16/06/2012 16:08

I'd see a solicitor if I were him. It could be religious discrimination. I can't see what relevance his religious beliefs are, even if he were teaching religion. Which presumably he is not. If a Sikh person for example were refused the job and they thought it was because they were not Catholic, it would obviously be religious discrimination. Exactly the same for an aetheist.

TheMonster · 16/06/2012 16:08

They've gone for the cheaper option of an NQT. It's the same story country-wide, I'm afraid. Money is more important than anything else at the moment.

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