to think I might not have done DS1 any favours by raising him a pacifist?

[GhostOfAWasp]

I've always taught him that we don't hit people no matter what, and he's grown up so far to be a very loving, sensitive boy. (ive raised DS2 the same way but he's ignored me and takes no prisoners! They're almost 4 and 6.)

Ds1 got punched in the face today. He didn't respond to the boy but came straight to me in tears- I didn't actually see what happened but the boy came to apologise. I don't want either of my boys to be brawlers at all, but I do sometimes worry if I've set him up for a fall, and if maybe he's going to end up being targeted because he doesnt fight back? Teaching him to hit back doesn't sit well with me though. AIBU?

With worra. I think it's as much about self confidence as well.

a good martial arts teacher will teach pupils to walk with confidence and not to ' look like a victim'

Also to judge when a situation could turn nasty and strategies to avoid potential trouble.

There are some nasty bastards out there and kids, especially boys as statistically they more vulnerable, need to be aware.

I think there is certainly an issue with area. I also think that random drunken assaults are more likely to happen to men. I am a nosy, interfering mate who can't stand by and let things happen which I feel shouldn't. I realised I had to stop doing this when the drunken thugs I was berating would turn their eye on my bespectacled DH. He is not a fighter and ran away when a random man started on him. The police and I both reassured him that he had done the right thing - the same person seriously assaulted several other people the same night. However, he was pretty torn up over the idea that he should have fought back. The random guy's pals were standing watching - I am fairly certain they would have joined in had DH shown 'willing'

enimmead that is a great story.

You see I don't see shoving someone off you as attacking them back.

I simply see it as shoving them off you and running for help.

I actually think it's instinctive for most people.

They might see it as such though. Like I said, a 6ft tall bloke intent on hurting me is not going to do much if I shove him. If anything it gives him a chance to grab your arms.

worra that would be ok at our school (I say with caution). If it is flat-palmed and clearly defensive. It's a dreadful thing to deal with though.

Well I don't know what else to say yellow

For me personally shoving someone off me if they're attacking me (so that I can run for help) is instinctive....similar to swatting a bee if it buzzes near my face.

I'm with Worra.

Fight back and the fight continues.

Use self defence effectively - it can hopefully be controlled.

Someone starts attacking you and you end up on the ground - learn how to protect your head.

Or try to run away.

You can surprise them by fighting back - the bully might be scared and run off - or they could have a real go at you.

My DS is 7. He is as passive as you can get. Not seen any "violent" computer games or teenage turtle stuff (superhero action fighting stuff). I dread to think what will happen if / when someone hurts him physically or picks on him physically.

As a teacher, I encourage no fighting back as you then cannot tell who started it. I know that's hard and I've had parents come and tell me they encourage standing up for themselves. The person who started it then gets the consequences - and you have to ask why are they so aggressive? Where do they see it? Violence breeds violence. In the same way DV breeds DV.

I think you have to act within your own personal boundaries and of course if running away is the option that keeps you the safest then you take that one, that is the basic premise of self defence.

However, a 6ft bloke intent on hurting me would have a nasty shock because I not only did judo when I was a teenager, but I'm also trained and regularly refreshed in breakaway and restraint so he would be on his arse fairly quickly (I'm 5'8/9 myself though) and THEN I would be off (unless I was at work of course!).

I should probably reiterate that I also agree with not fighting back

But I don't see shoving someone off you so you can get help as fighting back

In fact, when my ex H tried to strangle me I was very glad I shoved him off me so I could run out into the street....my vision was starting to go fuzzy.

But in my books that's not fighting him back.

There really is no right answer though is there? Not when you get out of playground business. For every story of fighting back being the answer you get another just as valid one of of fighting back being the thing which saves you from worse.

For what it's worth I think the OP should stick to her guns regardless. We all have to make choices and decisions about these issues and we will never know what the consequences might have been had we taught our children to behave differently.

Go with your instinct and accept that, maybe, things will happen which will make you wonder if you were wrong but know that, certainly other things will happen to reassure you that you right.

Fwiw, when I was around your son's age, a boy in my class starting picking on me, hitting me and pulling my hair, etc. It went on for a week or two, and nothing the teacher said worked, he was sneaky. The moment I hit back (well, he was trying to pull me off a climbing frame and I shoved him off, hard, and he fell right down), it stopped, forever. So there are scenarios in which it should be an option even for kids.

In adult life, you may not be able to run fast enough, and there might not be anyone to help. There should always be an option to hit back if you need to.

So imho, you are not doing him any favours to say never ever ever hit back.

This is an issue I'm so conflicted about. Probably since my use of mn I've got a bit conscious about my parenting and am now wondering what to do with DD2 (11 years gap between her and my older dcs)

I've given my DCs so many mixed messages about this but I do find it very hard to separate what should and would happen.

My parents immortal line on this was "if someone hits you, you hit them back harder, you hit them back so hard they don't get up"

When the dcs were younger I didn't think too much about it and although I didn't go as far as my parents i certainly told them to hit people back. As they've got older I think my message has been more to pick their battles wisely. I know violence is not the answer and doesn't resolve issues, but I do find it so difficult to deal with the idea that my child is attacked and they do nothing. I want to throttle the other kid so the idea they don't react is something I struggle with.

I think my life experiences have taught me you need to be able to cope with things getting physical but I understand for some this is just not an issue they've dealt with and so have a different view on it.

I mean I think the older DCs are alright, they have had fights and there was a bit of an altercation not so long ago but that was an unprovoked attack. But a few years ago DD1 went through a bit of physical bullying, she managed not to react and the girl actually emigrated so it worked itself out, DDs behaviour was probably right (I would have battered the other girl at that age) but I can't help feeling if the girl hadn't left DD would have needed to fight back.

Sorry have hijacked the thread, what should I be telling my DD2?

Well, DS is learning self defence.
Not hitting the other person, but controlling them, so that they can't hurt him, essentially.

TBH all you will get here are polarised views, rather than a consensus. Everyone will be in one of the two camps and very unlikely to cross camps on this one.

FWIW I think that - regardless on our stances regarding the 'be the pacifist/defend yourself' question - having your DC's involved in a martial art (any of them) is an absolutely brilliant idea.

My DCs do Karate. I cannot recommend it highly enough. A disciplined activity involving high levels of demanding exercise which also teaches a life skill. What's not to like?

I think (from a teaching point of view- dd is only 3 so not at that stage yet) that you do need to be very careful with anything other than telling kids to walk away. I think this because of this type of situation: child A - who is the dominant/stronger one- ''pushes' (or even just gets right in the face of) child B. child B has been told 'don't let kids push you around/stick up for yourself etc' and so pushes back/punches/kicks. Child A (who was hoping this would happen) now feels 'justified' in wiping the floor with child B. child A possibly not just bigger but also has friends with him etc. child B gets hurt.
To be honest I'm less concerned about who is in trouble/blamed in these things but more worried about the actual physical safety of those involved. (and ime we do thoroughly investigate all- thankfully rare- incidents of violence and we are pretty good at being 'fair' and ''reasonable' in terms of who was actually at fault/went too far/crossed the line/intended harm as opposed to reacting instinctively etc).
In my scenario 9 times out of 10 if child B didn't react/escalate it the situation would diffuse.
Of course there are times when instinct takes over/tempers are lost particularly with younger pupils and then hard and fast rules don't work anyway.

Schoolyard bullies are cowards, so to stop your kids being bullied they have to show the bully there are consequences. We taught ours that, if hit, to hit back straight away as hard as they could. The bully will find softer targets.

We also sent all ours to martial arts classes. I think knowing your kids are trained puts bullies off.

I taught my son never to start a fight (he is 11) but I've taught him to fight back if he is hit.

The OP plus others definitely won't approve but I've taught DS a few 'tricks' just in case that day ever comes (I hold senior grades in a number of martial arts).

The way I see it, I don't want my son to be an aggressor but at the same time I don't want him to be a defenceless victim.

I think that children knowing they can defend ourselves also gives them some confidence that bullies don't like.
At DS's class they have also trained telling the other person to stop it in a firm voice before responding physically.

It's funny to see DS being so careful when training with other children his age.

If nothing else he has lots of fun.

But, we don't really want to teach our children to engage in fights unless absolutely necessary and if there's no way out. Because even if they know some tricks the other person may be better trained.

I have self defence classes myself and the emphasis is on escaping, not engaging. You do your best to neutralise the threat and your opponent to get out without the other person easily following you. But ultimately we don't want to win the fight. Just get out of it.
And that's what children should learn too.

So I really need to tell DD2 you can hit someone back but never hit them first?

Also for yellow and others who mentioned the 6ft bloke attacking them. A swift hard cock punch/kick does wonders in a sticky situation. I don't know restraining techniques or anything like that but the last guy who tried to attack me was my ex-neighbour who was double my size, a quick attack on his nether regions sent him packing.

Ruby - If you are happy for your child to become a punchbag for the school bully then don't let me get in your way.

But I do like your consistency. Your DC shouldn't fight back if attacked but if someone attacks you then you will crush their balls. :o

Poosh you wil see I asked it as a question? What should I be saying to DD2?

And you've seen my problem. Not telling them to hit back is apparently what I should be doing(?) but its difficult as I wouldn't do it myself. The minor bullying I mentioned up the thread that DD1 experienced, (was hair pulling, names and she was pushed and pinched and tripped up) I encouraged her to rise above it and she did but then I think have I done the right thing because I would have absolutely battered the little cow.

As i said I'm really conflicted about it, I feel guilty saying let someone hit you but I also feel guilty about telling them to fight back.

What should I be saying, bearing in mind I personally feel on occasion a bit of force is necessary.

Agree with those saying teach them to defend themselves.

My parents were exceptionally pacifist, and took the stance of 'don't lower yourself to their level.'

End result- both me and my 2 siblings were bullied relentlessly. As someone up thread said, we were soft targets.

I won't be teaching my DD to be aggressive, but equally, I won't be encouraging her to be a doormat.

She too will be starting martial arts as soon as she's old enough.

Apologies Ruby. I've obviously misinterpreted your post.

I am not suggesting that you teach your DS to punch someone if that person merely flicks his head for example. Neither am I suggesting that he stomps on another kid's head.

I'm just saying that turning the other cheek is not always a good or desirable solution to the problem.

Thanks for all the replies - it's been really interesting reading. I still don't feel comfortable telling him to respond physically, but am definitely going to enrol him into some kind of martial arts class so he has the means to defend himself if he ever really needs them. And maybe try to find some really good role models who use their wits and diplomacy to get out of sticky situations...