AIBU to insist that the school investigate further or should I just call SS??

[ConcernedForThisChild]

I have name changed for obvious reasons.

I really don't know what to do for the best.

I will start from the beginning.

DS is 7 and used to be good friends with another little boy, lets call him H.
DS and H were in the same class last year and were good friends for a while, but I became uncomfortable with their friendship as H frequently used bad language and what I considered to be inappropriate behaviour.
I became aware that H's mother allowed him and her other children to watch anything they wanted on TV, including violent and scary films and tv programs, H told me that he watched The Walking Dead with his mother, and told me vivid descriptions of what had happened in past episodes, as I watched the program myself I knew that he was telling the truth. He also described many other inappropriate films and TV shows that he said he watching, including Dexter which was one of his favorites.
I asked his mother about this and she admitted that she does let her children watch whatever they want on tv, and didn't see anything wrong with them watching scary and violent things.

Because of this and many other things a encouraged DS to play with other children and stopped allowing after school playdates with H.

MY DD started at the same school in september. H's little brother is also in DD's class, I will call him D.

I had heard a few comments from other parents in the playground about things D had done but I didnt want to gossip so I didn't say anything to the parents, or mention H's past behaviour.

A few weeks ago DD's best friend had a chinese burn on her arm from another child at school, they didn't know which child had done it as none of the supervisors saw it happen.
Then a few days later DD also came home with a nasty chinese burn on her arm.
She told the teachers that she didn't know who did it, and the teacher said nobody saw it happen, but it turned out that 6 children had been injured in this way.
When I later asked DD about it she (after much denial) told me that it was D who had hurt her and the other children, I asked her how he had done it without the supervisors seeing and she said "he follows people into the toilets to hurt them where no one can see."
I told his teacher this and she said she would look into it.

Then shortly after another parent told me that her DS had told her that D had come up to him in the toilets and 'shown' him how he can "touch his willy to make it feel good" several other parents mentioned similar comments had been made to their children, but most didnt know by whom.
I talked about it with DD and she told me that D always "follows everyone into the toilets" and that he had told her to "take off her knickers so he could play with her" when she refused he hurt her.
I called the mother of DD friend (the one that was also hurt by D) and she said she would take to her DD about it, and later told me that her DD had told her a similar story with very little prompting (about what DD had told me) by her mother.

We both spoke to the head teacher the next day and she said she would look into it.
by the end of the week I called the HT to ask what she was doing to 'look into it' and she said that she was certain that it was just a misunderstanding and that she had spoken to D about his behaviour and that it would not be happening again.

After much though I decided that I would talk to D's mother. I called her and told her everything I knew about what happened to DD and DD's friend (I didnt mention the other children as I dont know if that was true or just gossip)
She told me that she had been told by the school what he had said, and she did apologize, and said she hoped DD's arm was better. She said "you know what kids are like" and I said I did but D's behaviour was concerning, and she said "its just too much f*ing TV"

It was all fine until DD told me that it had happened again (after all of the conversations) and several other parents also mentioned similar things from their children.

But the HT said that she spoke to D and that he promised that he would not do anything like that again.

The school dont seem to be doing anything to investigate this.
I am sure that it is just something that he picked up from an inappropriate tv program, but of course there is always the possibility that something worse could have taught him this behaviour, and I am concerned that no one seems to be looking into why this boy is behaving this way.

Would I be unreasonable to call social services myself to make them aware of this behaviour? Or am I just over reacting?

Thanks for reading.

Some posters may be right, and the HT may have involved SS but (understandably) isn't allowed to tell another parent.

But surely they can say something along the lines of "steps are being taking to address this problem, please let me know if it happens again", rather than "he says he won't do it again"??? It hardly reassures a parent who is worried for the safety of their child - and concerned about the domestic situation of the little boy (and no, I'm not just talking about inappropriate TV watching).

The school can implement a 'CAF' which is an education equivalent of the child being on placed on a 'plan'.

"I don't want to get the mother in trouble for her parenting choices, as I am definitely someone who believes people have every right to raise their children however they chose."

Her 'parenting choices' are damaging the child, at what stage do you want this dealt with, when the child is old enough to take the blame? People don't have the right to damage their children and the only reason as to why that usually happensis because all the adults don't do anything to stop this.

At least keep reporting every incident tothe school, hopefully someone will take notice whilst something can still be done for this little boy.

Thank you all for the comments.

I will send an email now, and write a letter to give to the HT when I collect the children from school later.

I completely understand that the school could be investigating it but are not telling the parents for privacy. But we have all been given the impression that the 'behavioral issue' has been dealt with.
The school at least appear to have taken exactly the same steps with this as they do when a child has hurt or been in a fight with another child.

ask the school who is in charge of child protection, a member of staff will be, thou usually the head. make an urgent appointment and say your daughter has disclosed information. write a statement of what she has said. write it down with date/time etc. make sure when you talk with your dd you dont do any leading questions like.. and then did he show you his willy? but just the facts. make sure you dont talk to anyone, even your friend.

I worked in a school for 15yrs and often had to fill in forms like this, it may look like the school are doing nothing, but they really really will be. but unfortunatley for you, thats not your bussiness to know how they are monitoring the other child. often they will know of situations and all these disclosures for part of a jigsaw to a much bigger picture. it takes time to gather the evidence, but in the mean time I would ask the school for reassurance that your dd is supervised going to the toilet, just even by her asking the teacher before she goes, i would have thought the school will be watching very closley H anyway. I would be very carefull to not join in any conversations as it could risk the schools investigation, and also this is a very young child. if this does turn out to be innocent then his reputation will follow him as 'that child who did this and that' for the rest of his school days.

incidentally, whilst my dd was in nursery, a similar situation happend in the juniors, children were even taken out of school over it. the head wrote a letter to every parent stating a child protection matter was being investigated and she would talk to parents individually in her office, but did not want to hear parents talking outside school. it had even reached facebook before this. we then got sent a letter a few weeks later saying it had been investigated and no further action would be required, I came to the decision that she was a very good head. thou it was maddning for the parents not to know what had come out of the investigation! good luck.

oops, sorry, cross posted!

I am a school governor and the Child protection rep on the Governors and have recently done a course on this.

Whilst children of this age are facinated by bums etc the behaviour shown is usually age appropriate ie childish and finding it funny etc. Precocious (Sp) sexualised behaviour is not usual for a child this age.

I cannot see that this behaviour and what he is saying, re "touching willy to make it feel good, take your pants off so I can play with you" is something he would pick up from post watershed TV.

This MAY indicate this child has witnessed sexual behaviour, porn or is being abused. Also the secretive behaviour and physical pain inflicted on non compliant children is a worrying concern.

Im sorry to sound alarmist but it rings alarm bells for me.

This is a child protection and safeguarding issue. it appears that several disclosures have been made to parents from children who are unhappy with the way D has acted with them.

This should be investigated in line with your schools child protection policy.

It does not appear that this is happening. I appreciate that this child and his family's confidentiality are paramount but from what you are saying I doubt appropriate action has been taken.

You will have nothing to lose by contacting Social Services yourself. Please dont contact the mother again - sorry to say this but god forbid if he is being abused and she knows about it you will have tipped her off.

If SS are aware of it - it will be added to their file and appropriate action taken to help and protect D.

If SS are unaware of it appropriate action will be taken to investigate it and if necessary action taken to help and protect D.

Doing nothing is not an option for this little boy and all the other children in his class.

Yes you have every right to be concerned. You have taken appropriate action by speaking not only to the child's mother (and I'm sorry, but watching too much fu@king TV isn't a excuse for her child molesting and harming others. She should know now that she needs to tow the line with her kids) but also to the HT. Your main priority is your dd's safety, and if needs be I would remove her from the school until this issue is resolved. If they are not willing to have a minder supervise this child then I would fear for mine going to the toilet etc.

I would have thought that the school had to automatically inform SS?

I read on the news recently about a 12 year old boy who violently raped a girl because it was something he had watched on TV. This should be a lesso to us all.

Totally agree with everything IDDI has said

IDon'tDoIroning Great post. I have nothing to add except that I would continue to report every incident to school in writing.

I think YANBU at all and would echo those here who have suggested calling S'S or the nspcc for advice. I do not wish to be sensationalist but the young killers of the little Bulger boy had watched a lot of horror movies. I am not for one minute suggesting that these boys are in the same league but just want to point out that to watch this kind of stuff at such a tender age is very damaging and the mother needs to be told this.

"I would have thought that the school had to automatically inform SS"

If there is evidence of inapproriate behaviour that could stemm from abuse, then yes, otherwise the school can start both first tier and second tier safguarding (CP) protacol and can make the referals to services and assessments that SS would. This depends on the LA/LEA and the schools policy.

The set up of the pastoral care in schools vary greatly, as does the abilty to tap into various funding.

like most posters i am appalled at this. I have a 5 year old boy at school and a 4 year old daughter about to start in Sept and would be horrified by this. I would expect the HT to give me personal reassurances about this, not just oh well he wont do it again.
You certainly do not come across in your post as interferring or trying to cause trouble. When you spoke to the boys mother did she seem in the slightest bit concerned ? I know if another parent came to me and say my son was doing the things you mentioned i would be treating it very seriously indeed and trying to understand from him what had been going on, and talking to the HT myself to understand his behaviour (but i also wouldn;t be letting him watch that TV or indeed blaming it on that (and therefore not taking responsibility) when his behaviour went wrong.
I dont think you should leave it alone. There are far too many people who don;t want to get involved, but by the time they do, its too late. I'm not saying involve SS, but i would definitely be back at the school wanting to know what steps they were taking to safeguard the children and to ensure this boy is not putting them at risk

I agree, this also rings alarm bells to me. I am also a school governor and have experience of abused children, both in school and in adopted into my wider family. Inappropriate sexual behaviour is very much a red flag and you are right to be concerned.

See what response you get from the head, if not satisfactory I would contact the child protection governor (there has to be an allocated CP governor) and insist they deal with it. Explain you know you can't be told what is going on, but you do want to know that it is being dealt with.

I think the solution is very simple and you have to bear in mind that the school cannot give you any information.

You need to e-mail the school the facts about what has happened to your daughter together with dates if possible. You need to be totally objective and pass no opinion about the mother's parenting - it is not your concern.

It would also, I think be permissible to ask for a copy of the school's safeguarding procedure and for the school to confirm the matter is being dealt with in accordance with that procedure. This should be enough to reassure you the matter is being dealt with and retain your status quo as a sensible parent.

If a disclosure like this made to the school.They HAVE TO pass it on to child protection authorities.The school are not allowed to weigh it up and decide whether there is something wrong.That is not their role they have to refer it on.
Watchinmh horror movies or too much TV does not make a child follow another into the toilets ask them to remove their pants so they can play with them.

I was told a really sad story on the course I attended. This is an actual case which happened very close to my lea..
There were 2 young girls who had a very poor school attendance, were dirty smelly had head lice, behaviour problems and told huge fantastic "stories" in school. The family moved adress often and also moved local authorities and attended multiple schools over a period of time.
They weren't very popular and nobody believed their stories. However in amongst those "stories" the girls told several adults was that they had been raped. The girls also displayed sexual knowledge well in advance if their years - I'm in wales mining is part of the culture but when these girls had a lesson on this they insisted "shaft" was a rude and dirty word.

Eventually several lea's and schools later someone took their stories seriously and it turned out these girls had been horrifically and systematically abused for years, but all everyone saw and heard were 2 dirty smelly naughty girls who told lies.

This story has stayed with me so please do the right thing.

The school doesn't have to tell you what they are doing to deal with the other child's behaviour, but they should be telling you what they will do to safeguard your child. Safeguarding includes prote ton from other children, as well as adults, even when they are only five.

I would make a formal complain to the school. It takes a lots of time and work to get decent measures put in place to effectively deal with issues like this, and complaints from other parents will actually make it easier for the school to access help from the LA. if they are not already seeking help from everywhere they can then a complaint will force the issue.

Something needs to be done for all of the children concerned here, please don't just let it go.

I think that's a really good point from Freddo and gets you round the confidentiality angle - ie you are not asking for information on the family or the incidents, you are asking for information on how they are safeguarding your DD.

the fact that it has re-occurred since ht investigated means she is not fulfilling her duty of care to protect your dd and fellow students nor address the issues with this boy.

Fair enough the initial chats and a chance to modify his behaviour but this has not had an impact and your dd deserves to go to school without fear of further encounters.

How is a boy managing to go into the girls toilets each time?

I'd be asking the school to send a member of staff at toilet time, how else can you be sure ur daughter is safe from this?

social services and police. don't mess about. get this sorted.

Yanbu, you do need to speak to ss. The type of behaviour the younger child is exhibiting is not caused by any adult tv I've ever seen. Sex scenes aren't that explicit that they would show masturbation or a man playing with a woman with no pants on. That's porn, or worse, he has been exposed to it irl.
Most 5 year olds are curious about their bodies, and most small boys play "101 things I can do with my willy" I would even say that it's normal for boys to be curious about girls bodies too, but the way this child is approaching playing with his own and others genitalia for pleasure is ringing alarm bells in a big way!

Just wrote big long reply, then had connection problems so it's gone, grrr!!!

In essence, YADNBU, phone SS yourself and instruct your DC that they must NOT go the the toilet on their own, and inform the HT and teacher in writing of this.

Tell them to stay well away from this boy and his brother.

I speak as a primary teacher as well as a parent of a child who will be starting school this year. I'd raise merry hell if my DC came home with stories like these.

I think the most likely thing is that the school are dealing with it but are being rather inept and insensitive in the way they are dealing with your concerns because of confidentiality and awkwardness.

But I also don't think it would do any harm to phone SS yourself aswell if you feel you need to.

warning, graphic story below

As a teaching student a friend of mine came across a 5 year old girl attempting to give a 4 year old a blowjob. My friend never got to find out what happened as a result of this but just had to assume and trust that the right action was taken.

I think we're lucky in the UK that, generally speaking, SS will do their job. I worked with an 8 year old boy in Brazil who was in an orphanage because he had sexually abused his baby sister. He was considered the villain and was removed from the house. Nobody would take him in. The boy's family was not even investigated. I remember crying and asking where they thought an 8 year old boy learned to do what he had done. They said that some children are just born this way :(