to wonder if the concept of sexual orientation is obsolete now?

[Alameda]

although obviously some take great pride in their sexual identity I can't see much point to the whole gay/straight/bi thing, given that many people move from one category to another throughout life

just wondering what the actual point of it is now that we accept same sex attraction is not a crime or an illness

Don't think school kids accept that being gay isn't a crime. I'm so sick of the whole 'you're gay' name calling!

that's why I think maybe we should try to loosen the concept of sexual orientation, although someone said abandoning it altogether was as bad as forcing people back into the closet or providing therapy to 'cure' them and make them straight

don't see how it would be even slightly like that

I have never been bothered about anyone's sexual orientation, and I honestly don't see why it is such a big deal, but, there are still those that find it of utmost importance....far more worthwhile of their energy and financial investment than solving poverty, world hunger, slavery or abuse. :(

so NotGeoff - what is it exactly that you do to "solve poverty, world hunger, slavery or abuse" that means you get to prioritise other people's concerns?

oh that's not very nice

I assume notgeoff means people who get their knickers in a twist at the idea of same sex couples enjoying equality with opposite sex couples (such as marriage)

the point of it is that we still have a society which is structured on there being differences.
gay people cannot marry
straight people can't have civil partnerships
the church is still a big voice in our society (and how it is run)
stacks of people are homophobic, some violently so
there's still only ever been about 1 openly gay footballer in the universe ever (IIRC)
actors hide their preference for fear of not getting roles
loads of stuff

I don't think you can get rid of the concept of different sexualities before you have a society in which there is genuine equality and the vast vast majority of people really don't mind or care what others get up to in bed.

It is also useful to have "labels" for people who want to meet others who are the same "label" as them for whatever reason and esp. to organise to fight against homophobia and inequality

"... given that many people move from one category to another throughout life ..."

What do you mean by "many people"?

Yes I did seem to be rather quick out of Trap 1 don't I?Profuse apologies MrVader - got the entirely wrong end of the stick, I hope.

There isn't the utopia yet where sexual orientation is no longer 'an issue'. I'd be v surprised if a gay/bi-/lesbian person would be suggesting this at all. The very idea of having a 'don't ask, don't tell' unofficial policy in the US army (until recently) is a good indicator of the need to ask and to tell. And from recent anecdote about a young chap I know parents still struggle with gay sons, which adds to the struggles of the gay son as a consequence.

I mean that throughout life, especially adolescent life but also later, sometimes people experience same sex attraction and sometimes they are attracted to the opposite sex.

I suppose it is all a bit premature, to imagine that these categories might lose their significance as we accept human sexuality as a more fluid and less susceptible to taxonomical classification type of thing. And obviously am conveniently overlooking how central sexuality can be to individual identity.

So is it 'most' or is it 'sometimes'?

We have the labels because there are still many many people who think homosexuality is wrong or a disease.

You are naive if you think otherwise.

Oh I know, it came partly via the Christian Examiner, I know there are people clinging to the idea that homosexuality is a paraphilia. India are v keen on the idea suddenly.

I was just thinking it might be helpful to dismantle the whole concept of sexual orientation but of course people find intense personal meaning and identity through it so perhaps I am being unreasonable . Will try to find links to the things I was reading.

yes, I think the intense personal meaning and identity obv. goes for the 'straights' as well - that we shouldn't be seeing the sexual orientation issue via the prism of hetro-sexuality.

ok I found the bit about the mutability of sexual orientation

"Although many individuals discover they have a sexual attraction to those who are the same sex around the age of 10-12, and for many others, they note recognition of same sex attraction or gender non-conformity even earlier, there are those that experience same sex attraction later in the life course. This suggests that, at least for some individuals, sexual orientation is not fixed. Considering the myriad of factors that likely influence sexual attraction, it would be surprising if sexual orientation were something that was fixed from birth. Indeed, the National Longitudinal Survey of Adolescent Health, which included over 12000 adolescents, who were followed up annually, found that sexual orientation was not fixed, but something that changed throughout adolescence, such that more adolescents identified at 19 than they did when they were 12.9 It is likely this is also true to a lesser extent throughout the lifecourse. Certainly for lesbians, in this age of sexual identity, the age of identification is often later than their male counterparts. One longitudinal study found that many lesbian women identified as heterosexual at one point, had male sexual partners, and whilst most did not experience opposite-sex attraction, many had been in love with a man at some point in their lives10,11."

sorry, quoted without attribution

Personally, I think the labels are needed, purely because they help people find the right person for them.

For example, how would dating sites etc work if people didn't say who they were interested in meeting?

don't dating sites generally have options like 'I am a woman looking for a woman' or 'I am a man looking for a man'? to direct you to people who are most likely to be interested in meeting you?

sexuality and gender non conformity are different things, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable to have them put as equivalent like that

Also since out society is so enormously hetero it's not a surprise that people identify as homosexual later in life? If we were in a society where it really didn't matter and the media books institutions etc were not presenting heterosexuality as the "norm" all the time then some eople would no doubt be able to identify their "true" sexualities earlier.

I suppose for the purposes of those conversion therapies, and how and why people end up seeking/receving such treatment,same sex attraction and gender non-conformity are quite closely bound up with one another?

I just tried to read that blog post and only got about 1/2way through.

Anyone who thinks that sexuality and gender non-conformity are closely bound up is narrow minded in the extreme.

is it because advocates and practitioners of reparative therapies lump them together?

I hadn't really thought of that. I suppose to the sort of parent who would try to make their child stop experiencing same sex attraction it is an issue of gender non conformity

It seems to come from a place where men and women (boys and girls) have strict gender roles. Of course gender non conformity and sexuality are not linked. There are plenty of people who do not "perform" their gender particularly well and plenty of people who do adhere to their proscribed gender role and are homosexual.

It's just a narrow-minded view of what people are. If they don't fit into the box (and in the case of the US Christian right it is a tiny box) then they must be corrected.

I imagine that the sort of people who think boys who like dolls and are kind are "sissies" and girls who speak up are "trying to be boys" are quite likely to be rather inflexible in the face of non heterosexuality.

Alameda that was what I meant - someone's sexual preference has no impact on the way the planet functions, but people are happy to plough money into trying to 'cure' people.

as a total aside have been wondering for ages and ages and ages, and posted about it before, why there are no therapies for people who experience unwanted opposite sex attraction