to think that DH needs to rethink his career choice?

[Puffykins]

DH works full time doing a job which he used to love. It's in the arts, it's all he's ever done since graduating, he's good at it. However, it is very badly paid, and very time consuming: late nights, weekends etc. He's working the entire Jubilee bank holiday weekend - and he won't get home 'til 10 or so tonight. I can't remember the last weekend when he didn't work at least one day - oh, and it's not that he ever gets around to taking his supposed days in lieu.
We have DS, 22 months, and I am 8 months pregnant. I also work - I want to, but even if I didn't want to I would have to because his salary doesn't pay enough to support our family (by which I mean run a car, pay the mortgage and bills, feed and clothe us - I'm not talking fancy holidays etc.) I am fortunate in that what I do can be done from home, on a freelance basis. Mostly, I love what I do, but there are assignments that I accept simply because we need the money. I pay the mortgage and council tax, approximately half of the food shopping, all my own expenses and for everything that DS needs (clothes, swimming lessons, creche fees, any further childcare that I need in order to be able to work.) DH pays for the car, other bills, the other half of the shopping, and occasionally gives me money when I run out.
I do all the housework, all the childcare etc. and work. I wanted to do this - although, in truth, I didn't actually know it would be this hard. And I feel like something has got to give. I don't think DH even enjoys his job as much as he used to - he's constantly stressed, and ever when he is at home he's endlessly on the phone to people about work, and worrying about it. It hasn't always been like this - the past six months have been particularly bad - and of course those six months have coincided with my being pregnant.

Truly, I'm sick of his job. I'm lonely, bored, exhausted - the past few evenings out I've had planned have had to be cancelled because at the last moment he hasn't been able to get home in time. Some of these are work related (I may be able to work from home, but I still need to network/ at least attend the odd industry event so that people remember I exist) and I fear that my career is suffering. I haven't been able to get a babysitter at the 11th hour, and anyway, I can't always afford it. Admittedly, the past couple of days have been particularly bad because DS has chicken pox, so we can't see anybody or even really go anywhere, except the park. In the rain. And of course this state of affairs will continue for as long as the chicken pox does. I love DS almost more than life itself, and he's an easy child and loving and giving and only has the occasional tantrum - but I miss DH! And I thought that marriage was supposed to be a partnership! And I find weekends/ bank holidays particularly hard because my friends are with their families etc., and I go to the park/ walk down the street and see husbands and wives together, and I just wish that DH were at home.

And there are other things that he could do - his skills are transferable, and he's actually qualified to do something which would earn him a whole lot more money, and which would be fewer hours, but he doesn't want to do it because he finds it boring. I obviously don't want him to do something that he hates, but there has to be a compromise, surely? We haven't been on holiday since our honeymoon, because he can't take the time off work, apparently. (Despite his having 30 days per year in his contract.) This hasn't been an easy pregnancy - I've had bad ante-natal depression (a lot of which I think has to do with my simply being incredibly lonely) and it hasn't been complication-free either - I was in hospital last weekend (the one day he wasn't working) because my placenta started bleeding (it stopped again, fortunately.) Maybe this is colouring my current point of view, but, seriously, am I being unreasonable to think that he needs to prioritise his family?
Oh - it's not like he's suddenly going to be promoted and start earning loads. He's pretty much earning as much as he can in what he does. I could accept the bad pay if the hours were better, and I could accept the hours if the pay was better (I'd be able to afford more support) but both together . . . . ?

Oh oh oh he's finally home I'm going to attempt to have what's left of the evening with him and I'll check back on this tomorrow. Thank you ALL xx.

And there are other things that he could do - his skills are transferable, and he's actually qualified to do something which would earn him a whole lot more money, and which would be fewer hours, but he doesn't want to do it because he finds it boring.

How does he know this he never tried the 'other' job.
YANBU as a family he has to be there and do whats right for everyone not just what he wants.
My Dh left his 20 year career in the Boat business cause it gave him no retirement, no health care cover, no decent holidays, he got 10 days paid off per year and it had to be over Christmas, so 20 years with no summer holiday as it was busy season.
It dawned on him he needed better planning for the future and needed to get to know his family better, the kids were still young. So switched and after 7 years in the new jobs is looking for something else, but knows he has done the right thing.

All jobs have their dull bits. That's why you get paid. Otherwise you would do the job for next to nothing and call it a hobby..... Oh no, that's what your DH is doing!

IMO you need to sit your DH down and explain some facts of life to him. He has a family now, he cant go through his life acting like a superanuated student.

He has to find a way to make his hobby pay properly or he has to get a job which contributes properly. Alternatively he has to contribute to the family in terms of taking up a proper share of domestic duties.

I was sole breadwinner for many years and am still main breadwinner. At times it can feel that there is a big burden on your shoulders. My DH took on all domestic chores which meant that my burden was only financial.

It seems to me that you carry the whole weight. That isnt fair.

I'd say, he can do whatever job he wants.

It doesn't really matter if his job on it's own doesn't cover all your costs, so long as between you your joint income does - sounds odd to be that you keep your finances seperate?

What should be happening though, is that if you are both contributing by working full time, then you should also both be contributing by doing equal childcare and housework. If he can't fulfil his domestic responsibilities in his current job, he either has to be stricter about the hours he works or find a new job that is compatible with family life.

Forget the job for a minute, he absolutely HAS to start taking his holiday and lieu days.

No one is that important that they can't do this. Even presidents and prime ministers do.

He has a seriously bad case of presenteeism and you must insist he starts taking his leave. He's letting you down, exhausting himself and essentially doing 6 weeks free additional work by not taking it.

I've seen this before and most people just feel a bit anxious and stressed abd don't want to switch off because of that but I've also known cases of men working extra long hours and no hols etc to avoid their family responsibilities/ having to deal with house full of kids. You deserve reassurance that this isn't the case with your DH.

This is appalling! He's exhausted, you're miserable (and exhausted) -- something has got to change, preferably before your baby arrives. If you carry on like this, you are running the risk that one or both of you will get ill and it doesn't sound like you have much in the way of physical, mental or emotional reserves to fall back on.

It's beyond ridiculous that he doesn't take his holiday entitlement -- if nothing else it would help YOU if he was at home for those 30 days, even if you can't afford to go away on holiday. And it certainly doesn't sound llike his employers think any better of him for not taking his full entitlement.

Is he planning to take any time off work around the birth to help out?

Sorry, OP, time to read the Riot Act, for all your sakes.

It would be one thing if he loved his job...

I think you won't have any luck asking him to look for other work to be honest, even if that would be the right thing to do. However he really needs to support you, take his holiday leave, spend time with you as a family etc.

I work in a competitive area of academia. most of my colleagues do 60 hour weeks plus international travel. I have 3 small children and just can't any more. and it's amazingly working. I am more stressed about work because I am not getting as much done, and I will have to go back to longer hours in the future of I won't get another job. but, for now, I am keeping up with what's essential and no one seems unhappy with my work. my point is that even in family unfriendly industries, it can be possible to make compromises. I would be asking him whether he sees the need for it, or whether he just doesn't want to.

he is the same person, with the same job, as he was before he had children. you are unreasonable to expect him to change.

lovebunny surely some level of compromise and change is acceptable and perhaps expected when people have children

Millions of people change their working hours, adapt their lifestyles, prioritise their spending etc but are still the same people ffs

Or is it only the woman's life that should change

I do actually to some extent see lovebunny's pov: to me, my profession is such an integral part of who I am that I would actually sooner contemplate a divorce than giving it up
(dh knows this, so a divorce is not on the cards).

And yes, it's not as well paid as some other things I could be doing. But it's the sort of profession that is part of you, it's how I've been thinking of myself since I was a young child, it's work I expect never to retire from but just carry on doing until I die.

But then I expect to have to make other compromises instead if I want to keep my marriage intact and do right by my children. My compromise has been the hours: I accept that I will not be able to get as far ahead in my profession as I could have done, because I can't put in those hours in fairness to the family.

So we have slightly less money but I make up for that in time. And try to work at home in a crisis.

Something has to give: it is not healthy if one side is making all the sacrifices.

Sorry to be a little harsh, but it does seem to be a little bit "six of one half a dozen of the other" if we're going to divvy up fault here.

You have a stable job and you earn more. Perhaps you should accept the fact that YOU are the main breadwinner, and act like it - and let your DH be the one to have the "hobby job", however time consuming. Perhaps you can get more hours/get a promotion/earn more money.

On the other hand, you both work fulltime. Both of you should be doing 50-50 childcare and housework, and it's totally not acceptable that you are shouldering way more than your fair share.

You should be sitting down and having a serious conversation about this. But it shouldn't be about him changing his job, at least not as Plan A.

DonInKillerHeels - I don't have a stable job, and I don't work full-time - I apologise if my posts haven't been clear. I work freelance, literally sitting down to it when DS is in the creche for an hour and half every morning, when he is having his lunchtime nap, and in the evenings after he's gone to bed. Because I'm not able to go the meetings and appointments that I would like to be able to go to, I'm worried that my career is suffering. It is certainly not progressing as it should/ could be, and I should/ could be earning more than I am. I would LOVE that. However, it isn't going to happen immediately, as I'm giving birth in four weeks, and intend to take July and August off before starting work again in September. (The industry I work - which, incidentally, is fashion and art journalism - is not very happening in August anyway.)

LoveBunny - I agree with you, up to a point, which is why I was asking if I was being unreasonable. However, he was freelance when we got married, and freelance when DS was born (SkyBluePearl, DH works in theatre - on the production/ set-design/ set-building side) - which meant that the childcare was more fairly juggled between us, and we could each arrange our work to suit the other's schedule. Life has only been like this since he took on a particular job with the theatre he currently works for, and has, seemingly, thrown every bit of energy he's got into it.

Anyway, we spoke last night. He agrees that his job is not family friendly. He agrees that it is not fair on me to be doing everything. He willingly admits that he no longer loves the job. He doesn't like any of my ideas:

• project managing building works - which he could easily do as he's a qualified plumber/ kitchen fitter (the work he won't do because it's boring) and can do electrics etc. - though the point is he'd be employing others to do all those things, he'd just be project managing it, which he's done before
• going back to being freelance and doing theatre work AND the odd kitchen (it's good enough for friends of ours who are artists and will spend a couple of weeks doing a kitchen in order to make some money, but no, DH REALLY hates it. Fine.)
• setting up a bespoke carpentry business - he likes this one more, but says that he isn't good enough, and that he thinks he'd find it boring after a bit

His ideas are
-project managing building works on properties we own. We don't, incidentally, have any spare houses/ flats hanging about, and nor to do we have the money to buy a wreck and do it up. "We could move," he suggested. I'm not totally averse to the idea, but it I do admit to finding it a little frightening as it's risky, and it would mean giving up our home.

• becoming a full-time ceramicist. In Cornwall. (We live in London.) I certainly would not be able to carry on with the job that I do, and I'm not sure how we're going to afford to live . . . .

However, dialogue has at least started! And, once DD has been born and is a couple of months old, I am going to be more insistent that he makes time for me to go to the things that I need to, because it is crazy to kill my career when it could potentially be earning us a lot more. Further down the line, I would be able to afford more childcare to help with it, but until I'm earning more, I can't afford the childcare - Catch 22.

Oh, and yes, I know that it sounds weird that our finances are separate. I actually prefer it that way, and so have never pushed for them to be joint. It works for us, for now.

Oh, and in the mean time, he says he's going to be better about taking his days in lieu, and holiday! So, hey, result?! Sort of . . .

I knew he was SM type!! (Takes one to know one!)

Well his ambitions are pie in the sky right now, but certainly achievable a bit further down the line. In order for him to get to a point where he could do what he wants he's going to have to support you more doing what you want.

So whatever happens, he's going to have to bite the bullet and do some stuff he doesn't desperately want to do now. Taking his time off is a start, anyway. In the medium term I suspect that he will have to look at earning more, though, and go back to freelance with the occasional kitchen, just to make sure you get into a position where you can be the only breadwinner, supporting him in his start-up time for ceramics or whatever (which doesn't have to be in Cornwall, though I know that traditionally that's where you're supposed to be to do it) or so you can buy properties which he can project manage the doing up of.

Is the place where he works now a 'venue' rather than a theatre? Working practice can be very different in those places from standard theatre, generally understaffed which means minimal time off regardless of what you're 'entitled to'; I once worked 19days straight because they couldn't see how they could fit in a day off for me. Hours were 8am to midnight minimum (generally 3 or 4am though), and I never got more than 1 day off a week despite being contracted to have 2. Often you are expected to survive on the prestige of saying you work there. Doesn't pay the rent or buy the kids' shoes.

Jux, you've got it in one. It's a theatre, but it's fringe, and oh-so-upcoming, and there are three performance spaces, and at the moment everything is on a short run so it's endless get-ins and get-outs and you can guarantee that the lights won't be working in studio 2 twenty minutes before press night blah blah you'll know exactly what I mean. And yes, it's understaffed . . . Don't get me wrong, it's also a brilliant theatre and I've seen some amazing productions there - oh, and I LOVE theatre incidentally, and appreciate the free tickets - but I also love my husband and want to see him sometimes. Presumably if your husband is a performing musician, you too find yourself alone evening after evening, weekend after weekend . . . .
And actually I think that your solution is probably the most workable. Going back to freelance - although potentially risky - does at least mean that he'll be around more. And I've stashed some savings as an emergency cushion, so . . . (not enough for a deposit on a wreck, unless it's a SPECTACULARLY cheap wreck, in which case it's going to take forever to do it up, but enough to see us through a few months of meagre earnings. And he'll just have to do a kitchen or two. God knows I've written some things I'm embarrassed to put my name to, just so that I can pay the bills. He doesn't even have to sign a kitchen.
So thank you. And I hope that your new career path works out xx.

If you live in London, couldn't your DH just go and work in the West End or similar, whether freelance or theatre-based? This is what my DH does (currently theatre-based, thinking of going freelance) and he earns a very decent whack and gets sensible holidays, overtime and time off in lieu. Yes, I spend a lot of evenings and Saturdays on my own (with DD) but at least he's actually being compensated for all the unsociable hours with decent money.

Getting into the WE isn't that easy!!

You say this place is up-coming? How far is it from being-there do you think? Once it's reached it's rightful place on the venue list, then better wages, more staff, longer runs etc will all make it easier on your dh, and he'll have more time off, and it'll be easier for both of you. It's just a question of how long.

When dd was born, dh was out 5 nights a week (we were in London then, more venues, better pay) and even then he didn't earn enough to keep us. I was back at work pt when dd was 6 weeks old, and dh was working ata 'proper job' pt too. I think the only reason we didn't get as far as separation, let alone divorce, was because I was ill anyway, and exhausted to boot. If I'd had the energy I'd have walked by the time dd was 6m.

We moved here some years ago, and dh is out a few nights a week, as there are fewer venues, pay is lower, and there a lot of crap and cheap bands around. It is cheaper to live here though.

It seems to me that either you can struggle on for a bit longer as you are u til the venu's "made it", or try for one of the options I put earlier.

Arts are hard. Always have been, always will be.

It's doing well. It stages a mixture of it's own productions, and visiting productions. Some productions run for quite a long time, though nothing is ever on for more than about a month. Some then transfer. The bigger productions get reviewed in the national press. It was in Vogue this year - albeit in Vogue's 'Secret Address Book', and in Harpers Bazaar. The location - which is East - is one populated by the supposedly hip, young and trendy - and yet you can now buy Martin Margeila, Rick Owens etc. round the corner (if you can find the shop which is so well disguised it's practically a joke) and Prada is due to open a store there next year.

I just asked DH if he would consider working in the West End. He said no. Oh well.

I think a lot of it is down to the people he works with - but I guess that's the same in every job. But, for instance, he got one of our school friends to do the music for a production that opens later this week, so they've been hanging out all day doing the sound together. He came home earlier though tonight. And he's currently cooking me supper. So I'm feeling considerably more disposed to him at the moment.

I'm actually quite happy for him to keep working there if he can keep more reasonable hours, so I guess we just have to see how long his attempt at more family-friendly hours work.

"I just asked DH if he would consider working in the West End. He said no. Oh well."

OK. So he is being a bit of an arse. And the thing about ditching everything to go off and be a ceramicist in Cornwall is just ridiculous. But he clearly does love what he does, and does it well.

Freelance with occasional kitchens sounds like the best plan for the moment, and now you've planted the seed, let's hope he loves you and his DCs enough to sacrifice a little bit of the fun times for the payback of boring kitchens.

FWIW in my youth I was a pro musician and it is THE most family unfriendly job I can think of, especially if you're up-and-coming freelance and/or in the rock business. There's actually a great book by an anthropologist about the payoffs between cool gigs and stable work that puts food on the table - I think it's called "Professional Music Making in London" or something.