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Original poster

to think that there needs to be a national overhaul of sentencing guidelines?

60 replies

tittytittyhanghang · 28/05/2012 19:25

And that those dishing them out need to adhere closely to them? How can this man or this woman get roughly the same sentence as this pair?

It feels like everyday I read the papers and criminals are not getting sentences fitting of their crimes. Surely there is no one who agrees that the coal bunker pair only deserved two years. And god knows how long they will actually serve. Half probably if they are lucky? Don't even get me started on this shocking sentence.

Am I the only one that feels this way? Lets plough some money into building more jails which will create more jobs and more prison spaces, because Im pretty sure prison overcrowding has a lot to answer for with some of these sentences!

OP posts:
SandraSue · 28/05/2012 21:04

Consider this.

Around the same time Venables and Thompson killed Jamie Bulger, a similar case happened in Norway.
Venables and Thompson were met with public outcry, were given adult trials and Venebles has, since being released, continued to commit crimes. I guess most of you lot would like to see the perps in the Bulger case imprisoned for life or given the death sentence, am I right?
In the Norwegian case, the children who committed the crime were treated like children. The investigating officer even brought toys into the interview room to make them feel comfortable. Within a few weeks they were back in school again, and have never been hunted or threatened like Venables and Thompson.

We all know that should Venables' and Thompson's new identities be leaked, they would be killed by angry mobs. This is not the case in Norway.

Surely this proves that longer sentences doesn't mean the perp will change, anyone who thinks otherwise is silly. It's not the length, it's how the cases are handled, how people are treated and how large a roll the media plays.

Source: www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/mar/20/norway-town-forgave-child-killers

SandraSue · 28/05/2012 21:05

Oh, forgot to mention, their identities (in Norway) have never been changed, either. The only difference is that they were never posted in newspapers, nor their pictures.

SardineQueen · 28/05/2012 21:09

"I guess most of you lot would like to see the perps in the Bulger case imprisoned for life or given the death sentence, am I right? "

You are wrong.

Original poster
tittytittyhanghang · 28/05/2012 21:26

Sandra, those norway boys were 6, whereas venables and thompson were 10, as well as a host of other differences, but their ages being the main ones. Had they been 10 and that girl had been 20 months, im not so sure they would have been treated as they had been.

OP posts:
SandraSue · 28/05/2012 21:31

They were still under the adult age and therefore were treated wrongly. It doesn't matter the age, my point was how we handle people.

In some cases, the perps are victims too, many people forget this!

SardineQueen · 28/05/2012 21:38

I think the conversation about children is (for me) a separate issue.

Children should not be tried in adult courts it is just so wrong. With a child, given the right approach, there is a chance of change, I should think. With an adult serial offender, less so, often not at all.

Original poster
tittytittyhanghang · 28/05/2012 21:39

isn't it to do with the age of criminal responsibility? 10 year olds should know the difference between right and wrong in the case of murder, and especially in the case of the bulgar murder, but i would agree for them not to know, or understand, then they are somewhat a victim of some sort of neglected upbringing. In these cases then, should charges be brought against the parent for neglect?

OP posts:
Birdsgottafly · 28/05/2012 21:51

"I guess most of you lot would like to see the perps in the Bulger case imprisoned for life or given the death sentence, am I right"

Again you are wrong. I am totally opposed to the death penalty and i understand MH/psychological conditions. I believe that V and T were severely damaged by their treatment as children and there is a fine line between when we considered children victims and when they become branded as perpetrators.

SandraSue · 28/05/2012 21:51

Yeah that's what I meant, the age of criminal responsibility, thanks!
I agree, but I think to some extent it should apply to adults too. Yes, they are past the required age, but putting them in jail longer doesn't mean they will come out as model citizens. People need proper rehabilitation not just a life sentence, and I think this is where people go wrong. People seem to just think "jack up the time and they'll be fine" but it doesn't work like that, as my example showed.

(I used the Bulger case because it had a clear opposite of how the perps/victims were treated, I never meant to turn this into a debate about child criminals)

Birdsgottafly · 28/05/2012 21:55

In these cases then, should charges be brought against the parent for neglect

Yes, they should have been, children are very let down by our 'justice' system.

This is the problem with the UK press. Everyone gets riled up but don't know what the reasons are for things

I work with both child victims and perpetrators and it would shock everyone outside the process how many never reach a courtroom and how many people who commit crimes against children are left free to reoffend (and they come up time and time again trying to gain access to vulnerable familes).

Original poster
tittytittyhanghang · 28/05/2012 21:58

In these cases then, should charges be brought against the parent for neglect

Yes, they should have been, children are very let down by our 'justice' system.

so glad you agree, thought id get flamed for suggesting that!

OP posts:
Birdsgottafly · 28/05/2012 22:00

"People need proper rehabilitation"

But if that isn't happening, it won't make any difference giving a short sentence. For sex/very deranged crimes a targeted programme is needed, if it is completed successfully, then usually the perpetrator realises why the public want a stand against what they have done and why there should be a punishment element to the sentence.

SandraSue · 28/05/2012 22:02

the negelts -> parents being prosecuted thing is pretty good. It should have happened to all the little monsters who were running around in the Tottenham riots IMO!

SandraSue · 28/05/2012 22:05

Neglect, even

SandraSue · 28/05/2012 22:08

Birdsgottafly this is true, but we can't just say "people aren't getting proper help so lets just lock them up for longer" because that will make the situation worse in the long-run by pushing the formation of proper help back further, thereby increasing sentances etc etc.

everyone knows how crowded British prisons are because of stupid sentences (both long and short) so why not just get the help in place so that real bastards get the sentences they deserve while minor offenders are rehabilitated and put back into society fairly quickly. This way longer sentences would actually mean something other than just a year or two more before parole for good behaviour.

Birdsgottafly · 28/05/2012 22:10

Also, the Silije Redergard killing in Norway was very different from the James Bulger, one.

Birdsgottafly · 28/05/2012 22:15

That is the point of the thread, what most would count as 'minor' eg,property crime, the courts don't.

Whereas there are cases were Judges can decide that custodial sentences are not needed for sex offences or even Murder cases.

For some crimes and the Baby P is the one in our lifetime, as well as V Climbie, punishment should be a aspect of sentencing. As it should if the Ahmed parents are found guilty of the murder of their daughter.

TheUnMember · 28/05/2012 22:16

Sandra, those norway boys were 6, whereas venables and thompson were 10, as well as a host of other differences, but their ages being the main ones. Had they been 10 and that girl had been 20 months, im not so sure they would have been treated as they had been.

The Norwegians don't believe children should be held criminally responsible until they are 15. If they had been 10, they would have been treated the same.

flatpackhamster · 28/05/2012 22:17

The problem with rehabilitation is not that it doesn't work, but that it requires a brave government who are prepared to tolerate the political flak and the cost to implement it.

Birdsgottafly · 28/05/2012 22:17

Every time there is a report in the parper about someone going to prison for benefit fraud, if you scan all of the articles, you will find someone else walking free for an offence against children.

That isn't an exaggeration.

TheUnMember · 28/05/2012 22:18

In fact the UK has one of the lowest ages of criminal responsibility in a Western country.

Birdsgottafly · 28/05/2012 22:18

"The Norwegians don't believe children should be held criminally responsible until they are 15. If they had been 10, they would have been treated the same"

The details of the case were completly different. What was shocking the JB cases was the planning.

TheUnMember · 28/05/2012 22:23

Total tangent, apologies but it's interesting, reading a unicef article on children and criminal in responsibility. In Iran criminal responsibility is 9 for girls and 15 for boys Shock.

SandraSue · 28/05/2012 22:25

Sorry, but how were they "completely different"?
The ages were different and Venables and Thompson didn't know JB. Other than that they are the same - a child was abused beaten to death by other children. How does that make the cases "completely different"? How is one death worse than the other because of the age difference? How is one worse than the other because of how they were abused? Is the death of a child not bad enough?

Birdsgottafly · 28/05/2012 22:35

The children in Norway were playing together, a childish row started and the girl was accidently killed. The boys then got help when she wouldn't wakeup.

V and T planned to kidnap, sexually assault and kill a baby. They unsuccessfully tried tokidnap two others before they got JB.

They shoplifted what they needed for their crime.

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