To feel that having nearly half of your salary taken away is just not right?

[WinnieTheWho]

I don't earn enough to pay tax & NI but my DH has a pretty good job & salary for which he works BLOODY hard. I was horrified to work out after last pay day that for EVERY £1 he earned, he only kept 60 pence. This is due to a combination of paying very high income tax and NI, as well losing all of his personal allowance because he might get a bonus at the end of the year! It just seems that if you work hard to get paid well and you are a PAYE taxpayer, the Government & HMRC will just shaft you from all angles. It just makes me wonder why we bother? So... AM I BEING UNREASONABLE?

To give you an idea my eldest managed to sprain all five toes on one foot in September during PE. It cost us about 1.5K even though we have "excellent" healthcare that we monthly pay for through the nose.

Whilst there will inevitably be an exception to prove the rule, long NHS waiting lists are, on the whole, a thing of the past.
A Conservative government would no doubt like to resurrect them.

If you think my story is the exception then you are either very naieve or completely deluded. I can assure you that long waiting lists are not a thing of the past.

I hear there are ways around some of the waits though. My parents paid for an initial consult with a private specialist that jumped my brother ahead.

Here you may just have to do without. Not a long wait but almost no healthcare at all.

I have always had superb care from the NHS.

France spends the highest percentage of its GDP on healthcare of any country in Europe

Tell that to patients who are waiting 16 weeks or more for a non-life saving procedure in the department I work for in a large hospital.

My dad waited 4 months to get a new hip and he was in pain but happy to wait because it wasn't life threatening. But then one of his children has cystic fibrosis and she'd be dead if it weren't for the NHS. As would my son, so that sort of skews your perspective I guess

Sixteen weeks!
Am I just old, can nobody else remember when it was more than sixteen months for elective surgery?

Dowager why do you assume it is either or? Why do you accpet without question your father's wait (in pain!) as the price for your child being saved? Other countries have at least as good provision - children are saved and people in pain treated promptly. we are just braimnwashed her inot believing we 'musn't grumble' and assume, illogically, that it is a zero sum game, hip/child's life

But surely 16 weeks counts as a considerable wait doesn't it? That's once they've been referred for the treatment which can take a few months on its own.
Maybe I'm just sensitive as I'm the one who has to deal with people complaining about the wait!

BumbleyMummy - where, in my use of 'I' did I imply that I was speaking for anyone else?

These are the FACTS about me. I am not a higher rate tax payer, I live in London, I have no inhherited money, I do not consider my lifestyle to be 'crappy'.

But then 'crappy lifestyle' is a highly subjective description. How would you define a crappy lifestyle, in London?

Thanks yakbutter, I was beginning to wonder if over 20years in the NHS had sent me loopy.
I still occasionally get flashbacks to the 'bad old days'.

I can remember hearing about it Sauvignon, but I was still a child/teenager at the time. But just because it was much much worse then doesn't mean it's acceptable now.

And there is a difference between operations where it doesn't matter when they're done and ones that if left are highly likely to get a lot worse.

The NHS does a lot of good, I'm not arguing that. But IMO they do the bare minimum, they don't provide anywhere near the quality of care that is easily achievable in this day and age. I hate to slag off the NHS, because I and always been one of its biggest supporters. But when a system could actually cause people to lose something as valuable as eyesight, there has got to be something very very wrong with it. And that is why I would seriously begrudge it if my dh had taken that job and started to pay HRT.

MrsHelen 4 days is long when you are in pain but I can't tell you the difference Labour's 26 week, then 18 week wait target made.
It was hard work to get the waiting list down to this but very satisfying to all except private health companies who lost a lot of business due to it.

Blu, I wasn't saying EVERYONE does so you using yourself as an example doesn't negate the fact that some HE in London have a worse lifestyle in comparison to LE in other areas. People who have to use a huge chunk of their income to pay for accomodation, rates and commuting costs in London may not have as nice a life as some who is below the HE bracket but has more disposable income and a nicer/bigger house with a garden in another part of the country. Just because you're not in the HE bracket doesn't mean you're living in poverty!

It's not just about waiting lists though. Continuity of care is hugely important in providing good outcomes of treatment, and I think the figures are screwed about waiting lists anyway. In cases like my DHs it was more like the problem occurring in day one, then it taking two days to be seen at all, then it was six weeks to see if there would be a possibility of the op, then another 14 weeks to see the consultant that woudo agree to the op, and then if lucky you get that within the target time. But the target doesn't take into account the time it took to have the operation be booked in in the first place so it's completely farcical.

Dowager why do you assume it is either or? Why do you accpet without question your father's wait (in pain!) hmm as the price for your child being saved? Other countries have at least as good provision

Better in most cases. I think if most Brits had actually used European health services they would come back here and demand a revolution! we have a highly "cost effective" service, not a good one.

RL beckons...
OP YABU!

Of course living in London is usually far more expensive than living elsewhere - that's true - and therefore money isn't worth as much in London, if you like. But I think it's important to realise that even if people have more disposable, bigger houses for less mortgage, etc, not being in even the 40% tax bracket doesn't necessarily mean your lifestyle is remotely crappy! I could commute from Surrey or somewhere, I don't want to, (live there, or pay the transport costs) so I don't moan about London prices.

(Actually I suspect that rural deprivation and isolation from services like hospitals makes life on a lower income even less good value / harder in rural areas)

This is where expectation, competition, satisfaction, entitlement, jealousy and envy all come in.

Whatmeworry - I've spent half my life living in the US and mainland Europe and I know what service I'd prefer. Sorry that doesn't fit with your perception of what people 'should' think.

I accept it because I know the service is massively overstretched and is the model for many other countries.

Anyway, why are we focusing on the NHS?

Drumsticks, Singapore is great for the wealthy expats or anyone who is rich. Have you ever wondered why the old aunties and uncles are still working in their 70's and 80's clearing trays in MacDonalds and sweeping the roads in 30+ degree heat? The hospitals also have a tiered system where the poorest don't get air con wards etc. It still is one of the best Asian cities though with less corruption and more money put into services for the normal population. Are your children in private education or the local system with 40 to a class? And where they are streamed at 11 and have their education and often place in life mapped out.

Where would you prefer to be unemployed, ill, poor or disabled - would you still pick Singapore if you weren't one of the rich elite or if it all went wrong would you come running back to the UK?

I wasn't saying everyone's life was crappy Blu. I was saying that some HE may have a crappier lifestyle in comparison to a LE elsewhere. Obviously 'crappy' isn't very descriptive. 'less disposable income to enjoy' might be more appropriate. :) all I'm trying to do is point out that being a HE doesn't automatically mean that you have a wonderful way of life with tons of money to throw around. You could actually be worse off (in terms of disposable income) in comparison to people who aren't in the HR tax band but yet you are still having to pay a higher proportion of your earnings 'because you can afford it'.

I wasn't saying everyone's life was crappy Blu. I was saying that some HE may have a crappier lifestyle in comparison to a LE elsewhere. Obviously 'crappy' isn't very descriptive. 'less disposable income to enjoy' might be more appropriate

The flip side of the coin being that outside the South-East bubble, high paying jobs are altogether thinner on the ground. Living in London gives you more opportunities to earn those higher salaries.

The NHS has been focused on because the NHS is the only service we have that is paid for out of general taxation that everyone in this country will use. Therefore along with education it's the one thing that everyone, including HRT payers, should expect to be of a high standard.