To feel that having nearly half of your salary taken away is just not right?

[WinnieTheWho]

I don't earn enough to pay tax & NI but my DH has a pretty good job & salary for which he works BLOODY hard. I was horrified to work out after last pay day that for EVERY £1 he earned, he only kept 60 pence. This is due to a combination of paying very high income tax and NI, as well losing all of his personal allowance because he might get a bonus at the end of the year! It just seems that if you work hard to get paid well and you are a PAYE taxpayer, the Government & HMRC will just shaft you from all angles. It just makes me wonder why we bother? So... AM I BEING UNREASONABLE?

I can only dream of earning a salary high enough to pay higher rate tax...as this is unlikely to ever happen I don't know how I'd feel about it.

I do think the multimillionaires who earn more per week than they can possibly spend should pay way more tax though (although maybe that's just because I'm jealous & tired of being broke!)

Catgirl's not a twat. Warsi's a twat.

After all her bloody hectoring lectures, 'Let me tell you ....'

I don't think the OP is being unreasonable although she seems to have antagonised people by implying that people on lower salaries don't work as hard. I am a HR taxpayer but often work so many hours that I bring home significantly less than MW if I work out the hourly rate. I also rarely have uninterrupted annual leave. To some extent, it's horses for courses. No "help" or privilege here btw-raised by a single mum on benefits! I don't feel I get good value for the amount of tax and NI I pay, eg I find the NHS to be pretty much useless (I would feel much happier being ill in France or Germany, for example!) and I don't use state schools because I have no kids. Fiscal drag has ensured that many more people are hit by 40% tax than was originally intended (rather like inheritance tax, but that's a whole other bun fight!) :-)

Inheritance tax is unlikely to ever effect me, but I am opposed to it on the grounds that tax has already been paid on the wages that bought the house and also stamp duty will have been paid - it's taking the piss to tax people on something that's already been taxed. Not that that's ever stopped a government...

I'd agree with all of that Karma.

Unless something changes, I can only see that its going to get worse rather than any better in this country in the future. For one thing, people that went to the pretty frankly dire type of school that I did and who don't have parents willing or able to support them through uni are not only have to pay off student loans for living expenses but also massive fees once they start working. How are they ever going to catch up? At least in my profession, you can work for the NHS and get funded but thats hardly the norm.

I can think of a friend of mine who's been in the police for a couple of years, works horrible shifts and deals with some pretty unpleasant things. Barely has enough money for normal outgoings and runs out by the end of the month, no prospect of buying even a tiny studio flat in the near future. And to get back on point, when he does eventually earn a bit better, half of it will be taken away in tax/NI.

Wheres the incentive for people like him?

Goodness, maybe we need something like democratic free and fair elections.

Incentives aren't only financial, are they?

Beyond that, even if you're paying 40% tax, you're still earning a lot more than you need to survive. You're still going to have a good lifestyle. Anyone who believes otherwise is living in a dreamworld. One where you don't have to choose between food and heat.

Good post Lurking.

I think it's fair to say that plenty of peope on NMW work as hard as HRTs, but you haveto take into account the fact that there are plenty of people that could do NMW jobs. There are far fewer people that can be top consultants, or be MDs of multi national companies. People that do those types of jobs work harder simply because they have more responsibility. If there is a crisis at work they have to have their free time interrupted, no one is going to need to interrupt a waitress while she is on holiday. He or she can walk away at clocking off time and not give it another thought until the next shift, but the majority of waiters and waitresses I have encountered work extremely hard while they are there.

Wages are not just awarded on how hard someone works, they are also based on how many good candidates there are for that job, years of training, knowledge and expertise, which has often been gained through years of devotion to something. You can't say the same about the majority of low wage jobs.

A good lifestyle isn't one where you can afford both food and heating - those should be a given. It's tragic that we think, in modern Britain of being able to afford both, as a luxury.

When I was a teenager, if I had been told what my family income would be today, I'd have thought I was going to be rich. As things stand, we can pay the mortgage and the bills and we have a few nice things, but there isn't lots of money. Now I know I am a lot better off than many people, but the money isn't going as far as it used to and I am honestly not squandering vast amounts on crap. When I remember the lifestyles that my friends parents had, on this kind of income, I do feel cheated. I don't think that paying more tax is going to help those at the bottom of the pile - it's just more money that is being taken from my family to fund shit I wouldn't choose to spend my money on!

Well they're not a given, karmabeliever. Not for a lot of people.

Taxes don't exclusively go towards funding benefits.

Why bother feeling bitter? The economy goes in cycles. It's shit at the moment. So what? Count yourself lucky you have enough.

I hate to burst your HRT business martyr bubble, outraged but I pay HRT and have for years. I've very rarely had anyone reporting to me (because I hate it) and hardly ever even get a phone call on holiday. There are plenty of people who don't have business critical jobs who pay HRT. The people you're talking about earn fat 6 figure salaries.

There is an absolutely enormous salary divide in the UK and it's really bloody wrong.

I don't resent a single penny that I pay in NI contributions or tax. I pay it gladly because I support a welfare state that (should) stop anyone in this country living in poverty. Because even 60p in a £ (and it isn't that when you only pay 40% over a certain amount - I don't know if anyone has pointed that out to the OP yet) is a lot more than the average person gets paid.

I'll tell you what I'll gladly have your DH highly powered job and happily pay 40% tax rate

If your take my son's autism away.

My son has the prospect of a half decent life because we live in a country that gives a shit.

By grateful that you can and do pay 40% tax and hope to god you never become someone who needs it.

Karma, that is so true. Everything has gone up - council tax and road tax for starters. I have been poor and I don't take poverty lightly but it seems the comparatively 'better off' (for now) are being rinsed for tax while the people the tax system is supposed to help continue to struggle and services get worse. I suspect there is lots of fat in the system that could be trimmed so more money gets to where it's needed but given the wailing and gnashing of teeth that ensues whenever reform is discussed, it's going to be electoral suicide, so I guess we will just continue to bumble along....!

Well in my household we both just earn under the 40% tax threshold which makes it IMO completely unfair. A family could be earning £50k between them and being stung for the 40% on their earnings over the 40% threshold even though the other partner does not use their tax free allowance.

We as a married couple bring home approx £68k but only pay the normal tax rate as we pretty much earn it equally. I believe this is unfair and that a couple (not necessarily married) should benefit from each others tax free allowances if they receive no benefits.

HOWEVER - if the country cannot afford to do this then it is not possible so its just one of those things.

Martyrs is exactly what it is.

Would gladly exchange my ill-health, shit upbringing and crappy parents for a higher rate of tax.

Where do I sign up?

?I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.?
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

You shouldn't feel it's unfair Lou, because you seem to be comparing yourself with families where one adult maybe stays at home, or works part time. At the end of the day, any family where one Partner is at home or working part time has the potential to increase their overall working hours. A family where both adults already work full time don't have that luxury - and are probably paying out a shed load in childcare too.

I think what this thread shows is these are very tough times for almost all of us- but I take my hat off to couples who are already maxed out in terms of their working hours. I had two years off after having my first child and consider myself extremely fortunate- its a luxury

I agree with the OP, I supported the abolition of the 50% tax rate because I think a situation where once you reach a certain level, the state is taking more of your income then you are then there is something very wrong.

Dowagershump. I take your point, but the fact that you don't have that type of job and still pay high takes just makes me think even more that the 40% tax threshold is too low.

I wouldn't mind paying so much tax if we did get good services in return. But the fact is that we don't, we pay enough that we should, but we don't.

So many people having to pay HRT should stop anyone in this country getting into poverty, it should stop people routinely having to wait six months for operations, it should stop people ever being told that the police cant attend their burglary, their child can't get into their top six choices of schools, they can't have the wheelchair they need or the care or respite they need. But it doesn't.

There are many HRT payers that willingly give their money tithe government, but there would be many more if we got good services in return.

aedes - no matter how much you earn, the state never takes away more than you take home.

I think it's time for me to dust off my trusty wiki page of income tax rates in the EU

How the UK is actually quite generous when it comes to tax compared to other 'wealthy' EU countries

Many Northern European countries have all but eradicated poverty. Why not the UK?

Because some higher earners whinge about paying tax. I live in Sweden which has pretty much eradicated poverty. My husband pays 52.15% tax despite having an income below 50k and I pay 30.15% despite having an income below 10k.

Sweden has better services in other areas too though doesn't it?

I think there are 2 issues - how much are you taxed, and where does the money go.

IMO in the UK both need addressing right now, but for different reasons - the lower income people are taxed too much, the top income groups too little, but I have no confidence that even in tax revenues went up they would be spent wisely.

There is definitely benefit waste, but there are also things like baliling out bankers and silly foreign wars which are far more expensive.

YABU. But I'm sure you have already been told that in the many responses that I haven't read. In a civilised society, it's right for those who can contribute more to do just that.