to think the church organist deserves to burn for this?!

[purpleloosestrife]

I'm getting married this summer, but everybody in the village knows the local church organist is awful and sounds like Les Dawson playing the piano on a GOOD day.

Anyway, I rang him - and he told me that he was on holiday on my wedding day.

(whilst secretly extremely happy & punching the air) I oh so tactfully and very politely said what a shame and said not to worry as I would organise someone else, and really hoped he enjoyed his holiday. All very nice... but then just as i was ringing off and saying my goodbyes......

Right, he said, now about my fee....I said what fee, you're not even going to be in the country so won't be playing at my wedding??? to which he replied... it is £100 regardless.

He's not even going to be there or play and I have to pay him £100 !!!!

I've had to also pay a second (professional) organist - who incidentally only charges £80 which also includes his travel and an hour of practise ( on a strange organ ooh er !!) before the wedding. So the local organist is overcharging as well as fleecing me!!!

AIBU to think a regular church goer should actually have more christian values????

Oh and he wants it in cash and seemed EXTREMELY put out when I said I would only pay him if he gave me a dated itemised invoice for tax purposes.

I've just emailed the RSCM for you, to see if I can get their recommended fees, and told them your exact question.

I'll let you know when I get a reply.

:)

He has had first dibs on any wedding bookings though hasn't he - but chose to go on holiday instead.

Personally I'd let him whistle for his money and wait for the summons to the smalls claims court which I would be most surprised to see, and even if I did I bet it would be thrown out. You can't just verbally tell someone they owe you money and not do anything for it!

Whatever his terms of 'employment' are is between him and the church, you aren't employing him. If the in-house organist is a fixed fee it should be in with the price of the church. If not, it is a separate contract and you are not using him.

For me it would leave a nasty taste in my mouth and spoil the day if I coughed up and felt like I was being ripped off. How can that be justified?

Do come back and let us know what you did in the end? :)

and there seem to be a lot of people here who think that organists generally play for free during the year.

no, that's not the case.
An organist is skilled musician, and would normally receive a wage of about £3000-£4000 a year.
Don't forget, he also has to practise the music, he doesn't just turn up on a sunday and play!

In fact, I should imagine that there are very few organists who don't get paid a wage throughout the year- and they're generally suckers like my DH who is too nice to tell them that is wages suddenly stopped being paid to him organists who play for very poor parish churches, or who aren't actually organists, but pianists who fill in.

spg1983 - the PPL licence only applies if you're playing non-religious music on a recording.

Normal church music, and most things that an organist would play in a church are covered by the CCLI licence (unless the church hasn't got one, in which case, they'd not be allowed to play any music for services ever unles they bought a single-use licence)

were you recording the service?
that might have been what he meant - he's taking a fee for any future playings of the recording (as in, Youtube etc)

I'm shocked that so many people think that the organist should be paid by the church because the church owns the organ?!

The organist is a highly skilled professional.
If you hired a caterer, you would expect to pay the caterer for what they provided, wouldn't you?
you wouldn't say "but you get a salary, I'm not paying you for working an extra day"?
no, if that person was normally hired to work specific days, and you needed them outside of that, you would pay for that period.

An organist is no different
Except for the fact that you're not just paying for the time s/he plays at the wedding itself- you are paying for the many many hours of practice.
(DH would normally put in 30-40 extra hours for practising wedding music on top of his normal practice, because it's really really important to get it right)
You're not getting married within a normal church service, so you shouldn't expect to get your music without paying extra for it.

Robbing bastard! At least Dick Turpin had the good grace to wear a mask.

I couldn't pay this, I just couldn't. Because if I did, then every single time I remembered Our Wedding Day, my stomach would twist into a burning ball of frustration and fury and injustice. And then I'd eventually start to look at my husband and think 'this is your fault. You've done this to me, you've made me this way'. I'd probably end up withholding sex after a while, and ultimately, we'd divorce.

Don't pay.

The vicar is probably in on it. Our Church fees were outrageous in 1994. Mid July - £50 charge for heating ? £50 for flowers (in spite of the fact that we decorated the church beautifully, and left them there for the two subsequent weddings) £50 for this , £50 for that, but the most outrageous was the £50 copyright fee for the organist playing the music. Yeah right. £900 in total, and the vicar took only CASH..........

I don't beleive in God and only got married in a church as in those days you couldn't get married anywhere else that would hold more than 30 people (registry office) And if you saw Chatham Registry Office you would understand. This was a church in a village just oustide the Medway Towns, and it was a little goldmine for whoever was raking it in. It was in a very pretty setting and very popular.

3 weddings a week at that price, That's over £10k a month in the summer months.

And they had the cheek to pass the collection plate around when the register was being signed.

But Nickel, that doesn't really work. Yes, I pay the catering firm who cater for my party, for example. I do not pay each and every member of staff (chef, waiter, barman etc) who performs the work.

Now, I accept that the organist does not necessarily work on a Saturday - therefore, I would expect the church to charge me for the use of the building, the fixtures and fittings (e.g. the organ) and the 'staff' to operate them (vicar, organ etc). If they cannot provide the staff (the organist is on holiday) I do not expect to pay for that person.

Sorry to go off topic but Lilymaid I do not believe 'money-grabbing' to be endemic amongst musicians. In fact, I think most musicians are overworked and underpaid. Their work (usually involving a lifetime of training, gruelling exams, thousands of hours of practice, investment in lessons theirselves, expensive instruments) is often devalued. It's a pity when most people get so much pleasure from music yet are unwilling to pay for it (downloading illegally etc).

pol - no, you don't pay for the individual, but you pay for the work that they do. (outside their normal contracted hours)
and you would probably be charged according to how many people you need.

purpleloosestrife
I have had a reply from the RSCM:

"Regarding fees for weddings, please also see this page on our website - www.rscm.com/wedding - and the ?copyright and fees? section in particular. The organist shouldn?t charge a fee if he is not available ? this is just a straight-forward matter of bringing in a deputy. If he is available but is asked to stand aside for someone else to play, then, dependent upon the terms of his contract, he could charge a fee.

I hope this is helpful.
With best wishes,
Heather."

She has also enclosed the information about the RSCM Recommended fees (this one is specifically for weddings) .

Role: Director of Music or comparable (including one rehearsal)(eg if they are organist and choirmaster)
Minimum Fees per Service £128.50

Organist only
substantial £92.50 (this would normally mean all the music including voluntary, entrance, exit, during the registers etc)
normal £71.00 (this would probably be if you had something else like a CD during the registers)

So, even his request for his fee is extortionate - outside the RSCM recommended rates if he did play.
I would expect the organist to be really really good (eg Widor's Toccata without looking!) to pay £100.

That makes sense morally. If he is asked to stand aside yes. Suspect this chap has got a bit mixed up somewhere

Definitive answer for you there OP. maybe worth showing to the vicar. If the organist is going to threaten to leave her in the lurch unless she allows him to claim unfair fees then maybe she is better off without him.

My DH has never been paid anything like £4000 a year. When he plays for services it is voluntary, for weddings etc. he gets a separate fee. Most Churches couldn't possibly afford to pay anything like that. Even most directors of Music do it as an extra income, and I would guess get about £2000 tops.
Of course Catherdrals and certain rich churches are different.

I had to stand in for a funeral once when my mum wasn't able to play. I bodged it a bit but the music was at least there.

I think I got an envelope containing about £20. That was about 20 years ago though.

He sounds like a tosser fwiw.

mummytime - according to the RSCM scale, it goes from £5,180 ? £6,230 for a Director of music that is his main income down to organist only who has a "proper" job at £1,250 ? £1,710 (it's based entirely on how much work the organist is expected to put into the job, and how much that work is valued at, which I suppose is based on skill)

the £3,440 ? £4,150 I quoted was based on an "amateur" (one who has a normal job as well) who is also a choirmaster or equivalent.
(RSCM quotes that they would be expected to put in about 4 hours a week practice with choir/rehearsals/services)

Well most churches couldn't afford that, which is why skilled amateurs are in demand. But then the top rate is so bad, that it is no wonder most Ex-organ scholars I know either live in the US now or work in "The City".

but skilled amateurs should be paid a minimum of £12.50 an hour.
I wouldn't expect anyone of a higher than Grade 5 caliber for that price.

Have I stumbled into a Jilly Cooper thread again? Puns about organs, pretty churches and cash in hand for the poverty-stricken musician.....

Nickel from my experience of the average church organist they're not.

Definitely take this up with the vicar....and don't pay this charlatan a penny!

Why would you pay him for work he doesn't plan to do?

It's because of something called the St Alban's rule, which means the organist has to be paid (but not the choir, interestingly enough, although you can choose to hire them and they can choose to accept) but I think if the organist is on holiday anyway, that's a bit steep, and I would have a word with the vicar. You shouldn't be expected to pay twice if the bloke is not even making an effort to be there.

We paid the organist at our church as he played (big difference) and arranged the other instrumentalist (trumpeter) and opera singer.

If he hadn't been playing on the day...or organised any of the music we wouldn't have been paying him...but would have approached the priest to ask if we could arrange for someone else to play. That wouldn't have been a problem as our priest was entirely flexible.

The priest didn't charge us for the use of the church...or for his services (but we donated £100 into the pot).