AIBU to think the plural of anecdote is not data?

[NicNocJnr]

Firstly I'm still quite miffed - I'm probably being bolshy and biased. Currently though I don't think I am BU but more than likely am.

So, just had the great news that a good friend is pregnant, they're thrilled as are all of us, it's number 1 and very exciting/scary etc.
A group of us (all friends with mum-to-be not all friends of each other as it includes workmates etc). M2B was talking to us lightheartedly about missing some foods and dreaming about her favourite raw cheese etc - it's was all laughy and nice.

One workmate, childfree by choice (I do not think this invalidates opinions like some parents do but do think it's relevant here) then launches into how food/alcohol/exercise restrictions are just all bollocks and she thinks it's all fearmongering and it's quite pathetic to stop doing what you usually do just because you're pregnant. It was a real soap box moment. Of course she would do things her way. Several of the others challenged her on several points.

Usually I just let things slide, I don't really give two fecks what other people choose to do and am happy I did what was right for us.

BUT - I also have a disabled child and know many people with diasabled children and one lady that has adopted 2 FAS children. It's hard sometimes and it took a long time for me to get over the guilt that I caused this and did something wrong and have made my child's life hard forever. I know nothing I did caused this and have accepted that now.
The issues is she was basing her argument purely on - My mum/nan/man at the pub's wife did xyz and it was completely fine. She refuted my argument that just because you have a story about it doesn't make it true - the fact some people can smoke for years for example with no ill effects and die in advanced old age of something else (my great grandma) does not mean the ciggies aren't proven to be harmful and cause many deaths a year (my grandfather and other great gran - lung/mouth cancer both).

Mum2B was a horse rider and also suffered some early bleeding - she was advised to stop riding and did so, she misses it of course, but 'friend' kept on at her about 'think of your poor horse, it wont make a difference as you're used to it' my line was - it is possible it won't make a difference but (knowing the number of falls/accidents I've had) what happens if it does? Or there is an accident? As it isn't your baby or your conscience if something terrible happens would you like to back the fuck off?

It went on for a bit until I got really pissed off and said that she had no right to be dismissive of the opinions of mothers that wanted to do the most they could do to maximise the chances of a healthy baby using the information we have at the moment. It's actually only 9 months at the end of the day vs a whole life. How anyone ''cheats'' is up to them, for instance there were some things I did with some babies that I took on in all good conscience because I thought the risks were low enough for me, that might be different for otters. I wouldn't dream of saying I did it and my baby was perfect so all the caution is bullshit. I also had a mix of home births and hosp births - some people don't like that.

And now I'm just really pissed off - at myself for not just keeping schtum, at her for being so aggressive in her derision at my friend, at both of us for not being grown up enough to not put a kink in the day.

My point is - if you have never had the worry of harming your baby and been in the position of having to think about the recommendations and what suits you then mabye just STFU or have a discussion instead.
Her point is - she thinks it's pathetic that women these days fulfil some kind of agenda (I haven't quite worked out whose agenda yet, she wasn't clear. Probably a medical/patriarchal one) and we've been having babies for thousands of years without all this crap.
M2B felt awkward as it was a courtesy invite really and I just can't stand her now because she's the kind of person I hate and encountered regularly in pregnancies. Everyone was including her in the chat and was enjoying her stories and involvement etc until she started after our friend. Now I feel like a shit for telling her to wind her neck in. I apologised, outlined why I felt like that and called truce so we could continue to have a nice day. She just continued being quite judgmental and prefaced everything with 'well I'm sure Nic won't agree with me but'. I did just keep my mouth shut to try not to cause any more of a fuss. I just think there's a point where you should just support what a friend has chosen to do (as long as it's not clearly harmful to either) and keep your opinions about it to yourself.

Oh god, I'm a massive twat aren't I?

So that's stupidly long. And of course I meant others and not otters.

Hmm, looks like it's time to slink off and grow up maybe. Ugh

No you were right and she was being stupid. I mentioned back to sleep once which a relative scoffed at - we all slept on our front s and we"re all fine. Er yes, by definition those of us who aren't 'fine' aren't going to speak up and be counted.

I would have not said anything, then been cross with myself for years. Well done for saying something; you were absolutely right. She sounds like a twat.

It's natural though. If you don't know anyone its happened to then it doesn't exist. If it happens to someone you know, or you find out about it, then no matter how rare, it seems frighteningly common (eg madeliene McCann)

I think she was a bit insensitive but if it was lighthearted at first why not discuss it? Should he not speak as she is childless?

I think you projected your own situation onto er comments when she didn't mean offence.

I actually think some of the guidelines are a bit strict. I ate cake mix (yes I know) when pregnant despite the raw egg. The risk of salmonella is tiny as long as eggs are Lion stamped for example.

I also had a pint at Christmas.

I do think she was wrong to go on and on and on and the horse thing is ridiculous but I don't know, I think you read too much into her initial comments

You did the right thing to stand up to her ignorance, IMO.

Yes, everyone chooses their own level of risk and they are the ones who have to live with that risk if, god forbid, it does go wrong for them - and no one has the right to belittle their choices, even if they're not the ones they would make themselves.

Yes everyone knows someone who drank a bottle of whisky a day, smoked 100 cigs a day and lived until they were 100, fit as a flea etc... but they won't know anyone like that in the future, I'm sure, because the people who did that would have affected their offspring and increased their risk of suffering more from cancers etc. because of their behaviour. As in - the original person might have increased their own risk of a type of cancer through their lifestyle, but it would have been of the "one strike" variety, so they aren't necessarily going to get it - but they may have damaged their germline cells - so all their offspring already have the "one strike" when they're born, meaning another strike increases their risks markedly of getting that type of cancer. IYSWIM.

YAB a little U in terms of your title though - at some point, the plural of anecdote does become data, but not in your OP of course! But empirically, lots of examples of certain outcomes following certain circumstances can be correlated together to show trends which then become data as more examples are accrued.

Feel good about standing up for the pg friend though - she was probably feeling a bit browbeaten and might have had a bad reaction to Bigoted Ignorant Woman if you hadn't stepped in and told her what you did.

Thank you for the replies. I usually do keep quiet (even if I get cross afterward for not saying anything) but this was a bit rich even for me.

Kayano - Should she not speak as she is childless? - certainly not, I thought I said this doesn't matter to me in terms of the validity of your opinions. I have had a lot of help while finding my feet from childfree friends, I value their opinions highly to this day.

I think the OP comes across as a bit cross - because I was a bit cross
but I didn't dive right in. I think that's what pissed me off is it did start nicely and there were a few checks of her statements by others and queries but she refused to see any other pov. It seemed needlessly derisive and, quite frankly, disrespectful of the others in the room.

Like the 'cheating' or choosing to do something if you feel the risk is low enough - that's fine and your own business. But if I was saying you were stupid for falling for the scare tactics for not drinking as much as you wanted at Christmas that's different surely?

I admit I cheated but never would I dream of saying go for it because I was fine.

There are two arguments that drive me nuts:

"I didn't go wrong for me so the stats must be wrong/it's not worth worrying about"

and

"There are other risks you can't control so you shouldn't bother controlling this one"

both utter utter bullshit.

If I were Mum2b in that situation, especially on a first pg, the other woman's behaviour would feel like a personal attack, and I would be glad to be stood up for!

She was suffering from a case of confirmation bias. I am not a mum BUT would have told her to STFU.

Don't feel bad for standing up for your mate, mind.

I agree with you entropy - the first one really annoys me because it boils down to "any experience I haven't had doesn't count and I don't believe in it" which is the single most annoying attitude EVER!

Thank you Thumbwitch -
Title I think was more narrowly applied than is 'true', you are absolutely right.

However I haven't a clue if I could change it!

Yes! Or the people who believe risk equals certainty, so only one counter example invalidates the argument, I see that loads.

YANBU. Your feelings were being hurt and you stood up for yourself. What you said sounds completely accurate and sensible. Now you are just worried that you handled it badly and hurt other people in the process.

Insensitive childfree woman sounds insensitive, so I don't think you can have hurt her feelings. One quick roll of the eyes and she'll be on to the next victim.

Maybe your pregnant friend will feel it created an atmosphere. You can always call her and say sorry in case it did. She might have felt grateful someone else was there to defend her choice to follow medical advice.

YANBU. It sounds as though you did absolutely the right thing - trying to navigate clear path between the opposing Scylla and Charybdis of "I did x so it must be right" and "Do your own thing and make your own decisions".

The friend sounds as though she was being a twat tad irritating.

Yanbu. I had three miscarriagesbut now have a lovely 16 week old DD. Throughout I did absolutely nothing which could potentially be harmful - not a single bath, not a drop of alcohol, very gentle exercise only - onlookers have no right to criticise as they have no idea of a person's motivation or reason.

Penelope - You're absolutely right I'm feeling like an arse. Did phone to apologise but she said it was fine, turns out she's been getting this advice all day at work too.

Hairytale- I'm very sorry. Congrats on your DD! We had 4 miscarriages and then struggled to conceive, I'm aware this colours my view somewhat, along with my DD's problems but it was just so bloody rude!

I think my main feeling was worry not only of offense to my friend but of actually doing the same as this woman but in the opposite direction. I felt a total heel although justified and before I called I wanted MN's sensible blunt opinions to see how far my tail needed to be between my legs!