...to be really disappointed in how ready people are to believe the far right?

[ApocalypseThen]

Many inflammatory things have been said in the last few days about the men jailed for sexual abuse of girls - much of it inspired by the odious, opportunistic piggybacking of the far right.

Am I being unreasonable to be really disappointed with women who've been manipulated into believing that their behaviour is cultural rather than the product of very widespread beliefs about women that are shared between men of all races and cultures who abuse women?

Have you ever thought that in this case is might be cultural. Goodness knows how many 'honour' killings there have been in this community. Also, I doubt very very much if this particular community are busy marrying white or black women.

Go into any really strong community and ask them what they really think about other 'people'. Most, if they answered honestly would say that their way of life/principles etc are best.

So yes, you are.

YANBU, I cried watching the news last night seeing the street protests outside the court in Liverpool.
The far right are making to most of this and stupid people will be sucked in by them.

YANBU. Such a case gives more fuel to the fire and gives racists a handy new reason to hate people.

Yabu.

YANBU, although to be honest in this particular case the perpetrators did have some shocking attitudes towards girls they viewed as being outside of their culture/community. Sadly, some will extrapolate that fact to justify their own odious views and influence others to think the same.

I think YABU to some extent.

The far-right are using this as a launch-pad I agree, but the fact remains this is a huge problem in some parts of the UK and I do believe it is a partly cultural issue, partly a socio-economic problem and partly due to the poor education and terrible life experiences of some young, white girls in the UK.

Reach out to and educate these girls before they get hooked into the lies and lifestyle on offer, and the problem will lessen IMO.

YANBU, was of the belief that sex offenders from any ethnic background consider women as worthless objects,

Asian men abuse Asian women too, it's just this group of men had jobs as taxi drivers and in takeaways which gave them access to vulnerable girls on the streets, ie white girls.

What's really frightening is that it only takes something like this to break through the thin veneer of tolerance that exists.

YABU to a degree. I agree it's distressing to watch Nick bastard Griffin try to make political capital out of this a and I agree that this allows people with existing far right sympathies to feel vindicated in their prejudice.

However, there are a lot of good people such as Ann Cryer who have been trying to get this problem taken seriously for 20 odd years. All of the relevant agencies were so shit scared of beng called racist that they preferred to turn a blind eye to child sex abuse. That is fucked up in the extreme and people have a right to be angry. Whilst that shouldn't excuse looking to the likes of the BNP to solve these ills it is perhaps inevitable that some people who feel that nobody is taking their concerns seriously will turn to the comforting embrace of extremism.

I don't want the far right to profit from this case or any other. That saying we must not let crimes like this go on because the police are afraid to be seen as racist.

in this particular case the perpetrators did have some shocking attitudes towards girls they viewed as being outside of their culture/community.

My argument is that they're not alone in these repulsive attitudes - witness the kinds of things said about that girl who was raped by the footballer on facebook and twitter. The men who did this could not have more contempt for women and could not have been more inclined to blame the victim.

We hear that one of the issues in securing a conviction was that the police didn't believe the first girl who made a complaint. This is happening to women who report rape all the time - toxic attitudes are making sure that nothing is done.

Pretending that it's only men from some cultures who have these views is letting others who share them off the hook. Plenty of people still think it's only rape if you're attacked by someone in the street and left for dead. This protects people in relationships who commit rape.

Allowing the far right to set the agenda here increases the hatred and racism around, and increases the danger for women as grooming style crimes will be too readily associated with certain cultural groups, making others harder to detect and complaints less readily believed.

All of the relevant agencies were so shit scared of beng called racist that they preferred to turn a blind eye to child sex abuse.

If that was true, rape would not be so hard to prosecute. They did nothing because they were prejudiced against the victims as well. If the racial aspect had been as significant as Nick Griffin suggests, no person from any ethnic minority would be prosecuted for anything, ever.

Am I being unreasonable to be really disappointed with women who've been manipulated into believing that their behaviour is cultural rather than the product of very widespread beliefs about women that are shared between men of all races and cultures who abuse women?

I take it this is of the "all men are rapists" school of thought?

No.

It's of the "plenty of men share the attitude that being alone at night, drinking, taking drugs, wearing certain clothes and all that kind of thing makes you fair game" school of thought.

You're thinking of the different school of thought - the one invented by antifeminists from a deliberate and selective misreading of a seminal work.

Apocolypse - I agree with you that all rapists, whatever their 'culture' have by the very nature of their actions proven themselves to have sh*tty attitudes towards women. I also agree with people who are saying that part of the problem seems to have been that they had such a well of vulnerable young girls to draw on, and that their jobs (cab drivers, fast food) brought them into contact with them.

However, racism towards the victims does seem to have played a part in the attitudes within this particular ring of abusers. This should be discussed, just as all elements influencing any similar groups should be. Unfortunately, when race is a factor, things can get very inflammatory, even without the BNP trying to fit the facts to their agenda.

Have you ever spent any time in that part of the world? My partner is from Lancashire- I'd never been there until three years ago, and I was shocked at how divided some areas are and how much hostility you could sense between groups.

It's not just the actual rapists though, it's the police, social services, juries...

I haven't been to that part of the world, no. But letting anyone be fooled that these toxic attitudes can be contained within a particular community is dangerous and women shouldn't be colluding in it.

You're thinking of the different school of thought - the one invented by antifeminists from a deliberate and selective misreading of a seminal work.

Ah. Good to have what I am thinking clarified.

Btw I also think using the word "seminal" is always unfortunate in these discussions :o

Apocalypse I agree that attitudes towards women and rape were partly behind police inaction but that doesn't alter the fact that concerns about being seen to single out certain communities also played a part.

The two factors don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I don't disagree. But not discussing it doesn't make the toxic attitudes go away, whether held by a minority of misogynists within an Asian community, or some within white communities in neighbouring areas who feel alienated and angry and are happy to demonise all Asians on the basis of the actions of a few.

Or toxic attitudes held by police/the system, I should have added!

that doesn't alter the fact that concerns about being seen to single out certain communities also played a part.

Where does this allegation come from? The police say that their first complainant was regarded as an unreliable witness so they didn't pursue the case. The only people I've seen make this allegation are the same ones who believe that you can't say anything anymore etc...

But not discussing it doesn't make the toxic attitudes go away

I'm certainly not saying that people shouldn't discuss it, I'm just dismayed at how little critical thought people are putting into statements from some fairly unsavoury individuals and how quick they are to hop on a bandwagon.

Personally, I'm finding the spectre of the far right putting aside their misogyny to indulge their racism oddly alluring. It's quite a beautiful thing to have them standing up for women. While there are Asians to demean.

sadly I am not surprised how easily people will jump on the far right bandwagon and let themselves be lead along the racist by opportunists Like BNP/EDL etc. and other right wing groups. Why else do you think the right always create phantom enemies that we need to stand up against.

i am not surprised either

i wish i was.

but it is raising many issues that need to be out in the open and dealt with, why was this young girl not taken seriously by the police, why is there such a divide in communities in some parts of the country and we are some communites becoming more isolated from the rest of the country

It's not either/ or though, is it? It's not as if anybody who has concerns about the cultural aspects of this case automatically thinks 'that's fine then, white men don't rape'.

I can't think of a high profile rapist or murderer of women who isn't white.

It's a shame that you think people are looking at, examining and discussing the cultural aspects because Nck Grff*n told them to.

Most people find the man and his views repellent. But that doesn't mean that this case contains no cultural aspects worthy of our attention.

Oh for gods sake, group attitudes towards women are cultural. These men were purposely targeting non muslim, white girls, they were avoiding their own because they consider 'their' women to be worthy, those white infidel children nothing more than whores who deserved to be raped.

For years young girls were being used as sex slaves and those who were trying to do something about it were accused of being racist, right wingers because people like you didn't like the fact that it was gangs of predominantly Pakistani men targeting young white girls. How pathetic that the police were more concerned with ignoring this abuse while threatening people trying to stop it with being arrested for 'hate speech'.

People believe what they see going on in their own communities to their neighbours, their families, their friends, themselves.

There are sick people in all communities, that is true but certain communities the majority of men have very sick, misogynistic, attitudes toward women. It is their culture, and those attitudes determines how they behave toward women.

Recently there were threads on here about the statements made on unilad website and facebook pages that were pro rape.

The discussion on that, while acknowledging that these attitudes are part of wider social and cultural attitudes to women, had a focus on what was going on in universities. It wasn't then just about people who were raped. It covered the whole issue of sexism and sexual harassment within the context of university settings and student culture.

But for some reason, people have spent a lot of energy on MN and in the media trying to shut down any mention of the cultural context that these recent child abuse events happened in. I have never seen that happen with other contexts of sexual violence that didn't involve ethnic minorities.