Phone company taking the Michael

[GruffalowsMammy]

Long story short, whilst in the process of making a complaint with a well known mobile phone company I discovered they are acting outside of the direct debit guarantee. I brought this to their attention on several occassions (verbally and in writing). They didn't want to know and referred me to CISAS and my bank. So I told my bank did a direct debit indemnity and had the money returned.

I've now found out they have added the amount refunded to my account!
Is this allowed? My bank say no, but wanted to ask in case anyone else has been in this position.

Oh and they cancelled my direct debit (without my knowledge or consent)- and are now chasing me for the money!

Just to clarify they didn't cancel my direct debit because of insufficient funds or anything like that (in fact they didn't even try and take the amount) just a member of staff decided to cancel my direct debit (after I queried a large bill).

Sorry sorry, my heading should be Phone company taking the Michael or AIBU to think a company shouldn't cancel your direct debit without any reason and then be surprised when your bill doesn't get paid!

if you owe money to a firm that is paid by dd but then take the money back then yes the money is still owed.

Are you disputing the debt?

No not disputing the monies at all, just the fact that they have been acting outside the dd guarantee since September 2011.
To be honest I was surprised they didn't want to know as they are violating the guarantee with literally hundreds of thousands of customers.

When I told them how they were falling foul of it they said no were not, to which I said yes you are and sent them the details. They told me to contact my bank if that is what I thought. So I did, bank told me the mobile company will have to agree to return the monies and that they shouldn't then try and take the monies by another means- that bit did strike me as odd.

The usual thing with being outside the DD guarantee is the amount being taken by DD, you can request that your bank stop making payments and recover the disputed amounts. I don't know if the bank do anything else. e.g. wait and see what the outcome is. I'm not sure if this process automatically cancels the DD?

It doesn't mean that the debt doesn't exist, you still need to resolve that with the co.

How were they acting outside the DD guarantee?

The bank may be referring to the co not just taking the cash some other way, e.g. setting up another payment. I doubt it means that they cannot chase the sum at all, otherwise we'd all be doing it.

Are you sure they are falling foul of the DD guarantee, I find it difficult to believe, although not impossible, that the co have got it wrong with 1000s of accounts.

The direct debit guarantee states the originator (company taking the monies) must notify the customer in advance of the amount to be taken or changes to that amount. This is the part they aren't doing.

My direct debit was cancelled at the start of March (without my consent or request), I didn't find out the company was acting outside the dd guarantee until the end of March. So the indemnity and cancelled guaranteed aren't related.

I'm sure.
They use to tell you the amount to be billed by text message. This stopped in September 2011. They have confirmed to me several times that they only informed customers who received paper bills of this change- they informed paper billed customers to set up an online account. Anyone who received a text message bill wasn't informed- hence no online account (unless you happened to have one anyway) and no way for the co to inform the customer of the amount to be billed in advance.

So do your monthly bills vary, I'm assuming that its a monthly contract paid by DD? My co send me a text each month with the amount, I assume that fills their notification obligations.

I got confused about the timeline, they cancelled first.

An amount is still owing though, depending on the outcome of the dispute.

Sorry, x-post

but if you owe the money and have not paid (which by doing the indemnity you haven't) then you still need to pay - either by debit card, cash in the bank or bank transfer.

why did you do the indemnity? What makes you think you no longer owe the money?

Also be careful as the payments may show as late on your credit file as essentially you now haven't paid since september ?

Yes the dd being cancelled in error was a bad mistake but I think you have compounded the issue by taking this action which you would only usually do if you felt the money wasn't owed - I don't understand why you did the indemnity?

When the dd was cancelled and you discovered it you should have paid using another method, asked the phone company to ensure no mark on your credit file as at this point it was all their error and ensure that you have suffered no adverse charges as a result - you could have pursued a complaints procedure and they may have offered a goodwill credit but would not have been obliged to really.
you would then need to set up a new payment method- whether dd or manual monthly payments.

Yep monthly paid by dd- or it was until March when they cancelled the dd. That text does fulfil their obligation.
No idea why my mobile co decided to stop doing this and then not tell anyone! In fact I thought maybe I didn't receive the communication telling me of the change, but no they just didn't tell customers unless they were paper billed (they've confirmed this to me several times over the phone).

The whole cancelling my dd is so bizarre I can't find any other examples of this (unless it was for insufficient funds or something- which it wasn't in this case).

or statement or online statement which is your respinsibility to view

but why the indemnity?

maddening I did the indemnity as I was directed to this process by the mobile company and my bank told me that the mobile company would have to agree they were acting outside the guarantee to refund - something I knew (or thought I knew wouldn't happen) as they say they weren't acting outside the guarantee, whenever I've bought this to their attention.

I've been pursuing a complaint since the day this happened on the 6th March I've been in contact with the company at least twice a week and spent god knows how many hours on the phone. I assumed as they cancelled the dd and I've been actively engaged in a complaint the payment would all get resolved once they acknowledged/resolved my complaint (which was a pretty simply complaint at the start). I told the company the day they cancelled my dd that I didn't want or request this and didn't understand why this had been done.

There is no online statement as there is no online account.
I asked for my account details on the 6th March so I could view the bill etc and was promised they would be sent to me, it took almost a month to find out actually I've never had an online account or anyway of viewing/receiving said bills.

Again the indemnity was because the company directed me to this action and I suppose after banging my head against a wall for so long I wanted the bank/ someone at the company to acknowledge they are acting outside the guarantee. I've already been to ofcom but they don't get involved in individual complaints and the company isn't registered with the ombudsman.

I only found out the indemnity had gone through by chance. When I called the company on Saturday - in fact the refund it isn't even showing on bank account yet.

Oh and no paper statement as you have to be signed up to this and as I wasn't informed of the change had no opportunity to sign up for paper billing.

so just to check - you had dd's going from september but never had a statement and queried it when you had a large dd taken - on realising that you hadn't seen a statement you queried the validity of this with the dd guarantee and during your complaint the company said one action you could take was an indemnity with your bank. During these discussions there was a misunderstanding and they cancelled your dd in error.

maybe they suggested the indemnity as you were saying you felt they shouldn't have taken the money?

You did the indemnity to prove your argument?

If the bank agreed to do the indemnity the phone company are obliged to pay the money to the bank regardless of whether they agree with your reasoning.

If you are happy that the amount the phone company has charged is owed regardless of the dd guarantee issue then I would pay it once the money is back in your account as this money is owed. Bring your account up to date - particularly as it could impact your credit file - so march and aprils payments too.

Personally I would pay even if I disputed the amount and then dispute it iyswim.

If you are going to keep your phone with this company then I would continue to make my monthly payments to keep the account in an up to date status during the dispute/complaint - you could call up each month and pay by debit card if you are not happy to reset the dd. I would also request paper statements.

Personally after all this I would move my phone as the angst would have pissed me right off - how long have you got on your contract?

if you want to see the statements ask them to email them to you while you are on the phone - you may need to send a confidentiality disclaimer to them to enable this?

I've had dd going out with this company since July 2010. In September 2011 they changed the billing arrangements without notification.

I contacted the company in March as I saw a larger than normal amount was paid to them in February (when I was going over my online banking). I contacted them asked what was going on etc, as they had called me 3 weeks previous to try and sell me another contract but not mentioned the high bills.
In the course of the first 3 phone calls I was told by a supervisor that someone at the company had cancelled my dd (I would find out a month later it was the supervisor who cancelled the dd).

So I started a complaint the same day as I had these 3 phone calls. Over the course of the next month as my complaint was mishandled by person after person, and my emails were ignored and the company even claimed their customer service email was no longer in service (not temporarily, permanently- this wasn't true as I found out when I re-tried the email the following day).
As all this progressed and I was researching others who have had problems with this company and to try and find out if by cancelling my dd they had invalidated my contract I discovered the wording of the dd guarantee and that they had been acting outside of it for some time.
They forced me to re-start my complaint after 21 days at this time I informed them of the issue with the dd guarantee. My complaint was badly mishandled again (which resulted in a phone call nearly 2 hours long to go over mistakes and things they had ignored in their letter back to me).

They told I could go to the bank if I thought they were in the wrong with the guarantee, which I did. And I guess yes this was to prove I was right. Unfortunately the bank told me the company would have to agree with the indemnity something I queried as I had read that it was automatic elsewhere.

I would never ever have cancelled my dd with them even with the complaint- they did that themselves but I am responsible :(

Only a few more months in contract, they had told me that whislt the complaint was going on I wouldn't have any charges applied etc to the account (which of course turned out not to be true). I've told them I want to end the contract at once- I'm ignored.

Ha- I might ask them to email me the statement when we speak next, but as I've had to argue with complaints to get a second letter from them (a letter they agreed to send and then decided they couldn't be bothered I doubt I'll have much success). I've also had to fight to get my pac code even though they are legally obliged to provide it - a fact confirmed to me by a manager. She was actually quite apologetic and said my complaint had been mishandled and that the department that gives out pac codes was acting unlawfully by refusing to provide it.

Sorry that was massively long winded!

I do sympathise - it sounds like they have handled your complaint very poorly and it has all become twisted along the way.

I do think you have focused too much on the dd guarantee and that the indemnity should not have been done. I have only worked on the banking side but was always under the impression that an indemnity could not be stopped by the bank of the company receiving one - could be something to do with retail but I doubt it - I don't think it's going through is an admission of guilt by the phone company I'm afraid

your real issue was one with the statements and having to opt in to paper statements - whether they sent a letter that was lost in the post, you didn't notice/read or was never sent they should supply you with copies so you can confirm you are happy with what you have paid and ensured you were set up correctly going forward.

Unfortunately the argument over the dd has caused the dd to be cancelled, the indemnity to be carried out and you are no closer to getting your statements and are very upset -'which will not help your communication with them.

if you have 1 person you can deal with at the phone company I would keep contact with them - remain as bright and breezy yet assertive as poss to keep them on your side (just as it means they will go a little extra for you). Ask how much you owe to bring up to date and pay it. Get copies of statements and check them. Sort out your payment method going forward. If it is important to you ask for a formal apology for a.'the initial statement issue. B dd cancelled in error. C the poor handling of your complaint.

them get as much free use of your phone and move to another provider as soon as you can. Check your credit file in a month or so to make sure there is no impact (the indemnity and non payments may take a month to show up if they are going to at all) if they have then I would expect the phone company to rectify.

good luck with your complaint