to not want to go through probate?

[lovelyladuree]

My Mum (a widow) died unexpectedly, but naturally, last week. I am the next of kin, and I have a younger sister who disappeared years ago after stealing a lot of Mum's money. Mum has £3,000 in her current account, a funeral plan worth exactly £1850 cash in value and no will. I will be responsible for paying any debts, a months worth of (non-benefit entitled) rent at £109 per week, and the funeral, of course. Do I really have to go through probate to deal with this? All the websites I've looked at seem to be for people with great fortunes, their own house and loads of disputing relatives. The Council have given me a list of costs for any work they have to do on the house for the next tenant and I am sure there will be some because she lived in it for 41 years. There is a cost for probate, of course, so is it worth it? At the moment it seems a lot easier to walk away and let them sort it all out between them (council, banks, funeral director) or is that a bad thing to say?

I'm so very sorry.

You're right, it's not worth it. The government web site has information. When my father died (intestate) we didn't need to go through probate as he only had a few thousand and the contents of his flat. As long as the debts are paid then there's no need to do anything else. I'll find you a link.

www.direct.gov.uk/en/governmentcitizensandrights/death/preparation/dg_10029799 Here. It says that you don't need to apply for probate if there's less then 5k in the estate:

"When a grant may not be needed

A grant of representation may not be needed where:

the person who died left less than £5,000
they owned everything jointly with someone else and everything passes automatically to the surviving joint owner

To establish whether the assets can be obtained without a grant, the executor or administrator would need to write to each institution informing them of the death and enclosing a photocopy of the death certificate (and will if there is one)."

I agree with LadySybil- you should not have to go through probate. [If you have 'help' with probate it costs around 3,000 anyway].
Hope all works out. Take care.

I'd have a quick word with the Citizens' Advice Bureau if I were you, just to check what your legal position is. I'm very sorry for your loss.

I'm sorry for your loss.

What would happen if you did nothing? What happens to the estates of people who have no family/no family willing or able to be involved?

Surely they will just contact your sister and have her do it?

I don't think you are responsible for her debts. I don't think that's how it works. I also don't think it's your money that pays for probate. I think whatever she has would go to the debts and if it isn't enough - tough. I don't think anyone can make you pay your late mum's bills out of your own money.

Unless when you say you'll be responsible for paying, you mean paying them with her money?

Sorry for your loss. Of course it's not a bad thing to want to leave the council etc to sort it out themselves. You have enough on your plate, but unfortunately things need to be sorted.

Hopefully LadySybil will be back with that link. Remember to take care of yourself.

I am sorry to hear about your Mum.

My Dad died without a Will, and our Solicitor dealt with it all (at a cost, obviously). It may be less stressful if you go down that route.

It's not a bad thing to say at all, but someone will need to co-ordinate it all.

From what you say, your mother's estate will have a value of less than £5,000. No probate fee will be due although you will need to pay a pound for the copy of the grant.

Those estates go to the crown eventually Hectate. The debts are paid out of any monies of the estate. If there's nothing left then a form can be filled in, stating that there's nothing left. IIRC, you can claim for help with the funeral costs if you're on certain benefits (income support/JSA).

help with funeral costs

Aren't funeral costs paid out of the estate? So you definately don't need probate. Not sure how you get the bank to relase funds to you though without a will - and although your sister has disappeared she is your mum's heir just as much as you are. Maybe one for a free 1/2 hour with a solicitor or go to CAB?

It is possible to do the probate stuff yourself btw. My sister did for her husband's will. She and my dad were executors and my mum helped them too. With all of them together working on it they sorted it.

This link contains links to all the information needed:

www.direct.gov.uk/en/governmentcitizensandrights/death/preparation/dg_10029716

Sorry about your Mum. I don't know about probate procedure, but I don't think you are liable for her debts. My educated guesses are as follows -

I would guess you would be liable for the funeral cost if you make the arrangements, as the funeral director's contract is with you. I imagine you could reclaim it from her estate if she had enough to pay for it. I don't think that the Council / bank etc would sort it out among themselves as they have no legal authority to do that. Bank accounts etc would be frozen

Sorry about your sister, horrible thing to do

The OP just needs to take in a copy of the death certificate. Funeral costs are paid out of the estate, if help is needed then there's funds availiable (second link I posted). There's a tier of who is to be paid out of the estate: funeral costs first (always first), tax man, any other debtors (overdraft etc). Any remaining monies are to be shared between the children (in this case). Remember to claim back any prepayed phone/water etc. I'm not 100% certain about the council charging for work, usually council tenants don't pay for repairs due to wear and tear so it may be worth your while going to see the CAB.

Sorry for your loss. I was worried about the same thing when I dealt with my mum's estate. Her total estate was certainly over £5,000 but there was no need to get probate. It actually worried me how easy is was to get the funds from her different accounts.
Bank's were happy to release funds without as will so hopefully it will be the same for you.
You pay also find that the council do not chase you for the rent. I haven't heard a thing ad it was a year ago. Still holding onto enough funds to cover it though.

If you do probate yourself then it only costs £130 but there are quite a few forms to fill in.

The bank released funds just with us providing the death certificate but we couldn't sell the house without the probate.

You may have to go through probate as there is no will (so guessing no executors) so they need to ensure you are in fact entitled to the money (if any left) and also have the authority to deal with it all.

Really, you don't need to do this if the monies in the estate are less then 5k. It's far more stressful and will cost you money to go through probate. As there's no property, it's not necessary. The CAB will be able to give you free advice about this.

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I'm currently working on probate forms after unexpectedly losing my Dad last month.

My situation isn't like yours in as much as my sibling and I don't have any issues that are likely to affect the finances, but I did discover that you can download and complete probate forms without involving a solicitor. You may need to go to a meeting but that seems to be it.

I say that, but please don't quote me, as I haven't even finished off filling out the forms yet.

You don't need a grant of letters of administration (probate only applies to Wills, there is no will here so you would get a different type of grant of representation - it would have the same effect though). Write to the bank and ask to close the account, enclose a death certificate and they should send you some forms to sign to say that you are entitled to the money.

Technically your sister is entitled to a share of any money - but as it's so little, you could take a view that if she comes forward at some point, you will pay her (half of whatever's left after paying the funeral bill and debts).

If you want any advice or to ask any questions feel free to PM me (ex probate solicitor, gave it up 5 months ago so still relatively fresh ).

NotGeoffVader - you're right; I dealt with my dad's estate by myself. The meeting was a five-minute job, in which I showed ID to prove that I was the person named on the will, and signed to confirm that I'd told the truth on the forms.

I'm sorry about the death of your mum
I'm in Scotland and the law is slighlty different here but it IS possible to deal with the estate without probate ( called confirmation in Scotland) when there is no will and without needing a lawyer.

First thing you need to do is go to your mums bank with the death certificate they will close the account and pay over the money to you ( eventually, some are slower than others )
Check if there any any insurance policies, premium bonds etc
Get several copies of the death certiificate

get a notebook and make a list of money you receive from banks etc and anything you pay for .

As has been said above YOU are not liable personally for any debts your mum left, they are paid for out of the estate.
If you pay for anything ie the funeral you are entitled to that money back from your mums estate.
After the funeral has been taken care of and paid whatever monies left are what go towards bills first being tax then the rest ie gas, electric, council tax, debts.
If there is nothing in the estate you will have to tell the companies involved, some may ask for proof so make sure you have a copy of bank statements

If there is no money left YOU ARE NOT liable
The council may try and get rent for the time it takes you to clear the house but
I'm not sure they can charge you for works getting it ready for next tenant, never heard of that happening before and anyway if its not your tenancy they cant possibly charge you
Council tax is not charged on a dead persons house
Remember to inform state pension people and any other DWP benefits offices.
Phone electric, gas, phone, tv if cable or satellite, companies they usually have a specific department for deceased persons, tell them you think there will be no estate.

Keep receipts for everything you pay for and all that you receive, If your sister turns up you then have proof of what was in the estate

Thank you so much for all the advice and links. It is all so surreal. This time last week she was looking forward to having her hair done and that turned out to be the last thing she ever did, bless her.

I feel much more empowered now. I always try to do the right thing, and I will make sure the funeral directors are paid. My MIL thinks the council are just trying their luck, listing the costs I will have to pay to get the house ready for the next tenant. My Mum never got behind with rent her whole life so they can swing. Her debts are for catalogues because she was the queen of mail order! Thank you all very much.

Some lenders have insurance which covers their payments if their customer dies, it's worthwhile looking through her bills.

If there's anything you need, please do shout.

OP, so sorry for your loss. Having to deal with authorities during a time of bereavement is very testing indeed.

Your comments about the council charging for changes to the property concern me. Be careful there, as another poster said, they are trying their luck. It disgusts me that they take advantage of people while they are in a vulnerable state.
Typical council behaviour though, well, something I'd expect from my council anyway (Manchester). Quite possibly the most corrupt one in the country!