Are Primary schools BU with their inability to take in children with disabilities

[shattereddreams]

I was going to post in primary schools but it's full of newbies with appeal questions and this is slightly off topic....

I have over the last few months heard more and more of children with disabilities not being admitted to their local primaries because the schools didn't want them...

I am confused as I thought children with needs got absolute priority over their choice of primary. It seems I was mistaken and actually they are the bottom of the pile.

I've now come across in my small town YR this year (all different schools I may add)
Down's being refused admittance even though the medical people since birth said the child was suitable for mainstream primary education
Autism being refused admittance even with a sibling at the school
Cerebral Palsy because wheelchair was not suitable even though it was used within the school nursery
Diabetes high dependency on insulin being refused admittance even with a sibling at school and again the nursery staff being able to cope with the medical needs.

What gives the primary schools the right to refuse admittance to the examples with siblings?
Surely this is totally unreasonable!

Kitty
The LA are funding the children.
Just not in the school of the parents choice of which they were eligible for admission.
In a different school in town, no better, no special facilities. Just a more accommodating head????!

if they were 'refused admittance' it will be because they were not statemented with the school in question as the 'named school', and that for some reason the school was deemed unable to meet their needs.

it is completley illegal to discriminate on the basis of disability.

however, if the school were unable to meet the pupil's needs, that's a get out.

sorry what do you mean by "Down's being refused admittance" what is a Downs?

Because the LA must be fibbing through their teeth as are the heads.
I'm sure these parents have enough on their plates
It's not my situation, just my town.

I know they could appeal. They would win. But this sort of thing does go on.

2shoes
I was referring to a child with Downs Symdrome

Argh iPhone
Syndrome

Ive never been refused admittance for schooling DS and have got him into the local primary school twice (I moved).

However it is very clear that they don't have the capacity to deal with children who do not have SEN just medical needs. I have fought hard to get DS the minimum required care to be done during school hours. Never mind the extra bits. They have also been taught what to do just in case his gastrostomy fall out. Despite two lots of training they still have admitted that they'd just call 999.

I appreciate they don't have training but even after I have been able to get nurses in, there still seems to be an attitude of 'that's not my job' about it, which makes me concerned about the level of his safety sometimes. I'm asking them to do quite basic stuff really - not open heart surgery.

'fibbing through their teeth'

about what?

they can hardly be making up where a child lives in relation to other applicants?

they can hardly fib that the kids don't have siblings at the school.

i am ata loss as to what you are suggesting.

the only possible reason for them not being given admittance is that a different school was the named school on the statement, agreed by the parents, or that the school in question was not deemed an appropriate setting, for whatever reason, and an alternative provision was.

anything else could be challenged and overturned without even a fight, as it's clearly against every rule in the book.

no HT or LA is stupid enough to say 'ooo, we don't do disability here.' they have no choice.

they just need to appeal, and if the facts are as you claim, they will all get in.

the next thread on mn will be along the lines of 'there are all these disabled kids in my son's class which takes them over their PAN. how can that be allowed?'

Fibbing as in not giving parents the facts. Not everyone knows all their rights or reads mumsnet!
Why else are the children in different schools within same LA to their siblings against parents wishes?

shattereddreams Wed 02-May-12 22:53:27
2shoes
I was referring to a child with Downs Symdrome

well glad you corrected it

I have to add - the first school I approached about the nursery said they quite pointedly said they didn't take children with any SN.

When I applied to the school via the LA, they didn't view his needs as sufficient enough to refuse him entry - he got into the school. His needs were lesser then than they are now, but ultimately it was never down to the school anyway

I'm just confirming what everyone else has said too basically

how do you know they didn't give their parents the facts? the parents might not have wanted to discuss with you why the school wasn't deemed suitable for their child?

that said, there are areas where one school is resourced appropriately - so it does tend to become the default. but that's because all the expertise and funding is there, and so it is the best place for achild with x,y or z.

it is not impossible to prove another school can meet a child's needs alongside the sibling (particularly where there is a strong socila or emotional need) but it is more difficult if there is an all singing all dancing school with facitlities just down the road.

I get the feeling I'm muttering away to myself an no one is listening (my fault I know)
No differet or better provisions in other schools
No preferences
No expertise
Same funding.
Ok. Next time I see these parents I'll ask why they didn't appeal.

In the meantime, I still believe ( not forgetting it is the parents vibe that gave me this view) the heads said no.

shattereddreams, could it have been that a child who lives out of area, without a sibling (so therefore looks like they should have been 'after' the child you know), actually has a statement of their own? And therefore becomes high in the queue? Or may be a looked-after child? In which case they are right at the very top? Unless you know all the details of every child in the class surely you can't know for certain that a child was treated unfairly. For whilst I agree that some schools can be distinctly unhelpful/obstructive when it comes to making adjustments for disabilities, a school would be taking a hell of a risk to deny a child a place that was rightfully theirs, as they are acting illegally at this point, and surely fairly easy to prove if the parents' took the case to appeal?

That cuts both ways shattereddreams.
I get the feeling you are not listening to any of the people on this thread - with a wide variety of knowledge, who are saying to you that you clearly have not got all the facts. It's not your child. You weren't party to any meetings or phone calls, You are not claiming to have seen any letters, you are going on a conversation with a parent (who may well be upset at not getting their first choice of school maybe), and, as probably everyone would do in those circumstances is stating the facts as they perceive them, which, very often is not (as they say) 'the thruth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth^.
Through my work, I come across a lot of families who (usually through things not having been expained to them in a way they can understand, rather than through trying to decieve anyone), say that this or that has been said when it hasn't.

i'm listening, but i'm trying to work it out.

it doesn't make any sense to me.

if you have an nt kid in school, you have been through the applications process at least once before.

if you have a child with a disability, someone somewhere is going to give you a clue about schools and applications. transition meetings with nursery and new school. discussions of a statement and which school should be the named school. therapists, paediatrician, camhs, all will have an opinion about the type of school that will be suitable. parents of kids with sn will visit a few schools because they want to be sure that the school can meet their child's needs.

it is extremely unlikely that children with known disabilities and siblings will have parents that just put in an ordinary school application, ask noone for advice, and then just say 'oh, ok' when given a school they don't want.

i think i'm a bit offended.

but tbh, if these parents are genuinely so disenfranchised, then someone needs to be getting a grip of disability support and provision in your area. i can't believe that any group of parents could be treated so appallingly and just roll over, tbh. it's kind of offensive to suggest that they are all so clueless they are doing nothing because they don't know any better, and somehow you do, and you are offended on their behalf.

i'm really hoping that you are wrong. genuinely. because all it would take would be one phone call, and no-one would have a leg to stand on if what you are saying is true.

Yes, sorry shattereddreams but I have to add my voice to the increasing chorus of people saying that this is not how the admissions system works; schools/Headteachers simply do not have the influence you are attributing to them.

Can I just say that schools CAN refuse depending on their set up?

I won;t post the exact nature of our local MS as last time I did I was outed but it sits outside the LEA for most things and as locals in Wales where the cathchment systems rules we don;t even get the applications form for all the opther schools; even though it is a faith school (NOT Church) and I have ahd to sign a form I am unhappy with agreeing to raise ds4 that way, there were no other options available.

That school tried to refuse ds3, who has autism. Luckily I know the loal Vicar and he sorted it until I could get a palce at a Base, but they did try and could have refused had they not been over ridden (Vicar head of Governors)

The 'this is what happens its the law' standpoint is overly simplistic I feel. There are ways and means to make you feel unwelcome, from being awkward about times/dates to look around to making you wait while they speak to a million other parents of NT children as you are not as important. Although our local school should have accepted DS I wouldn't and him there in a million years - the heads attitude during the tour made it very clear to us that he would be neither supported or welcomed. Yes I did complain, but from talking to other people in the same boat these are not isolated incidents. Schools can't say it outright but you come away with a very clear idea of their stance on SN and let's faceir no one would put their kid somewhere where they would not be supported

To the poster who said 'heads don't have that sort of power' - ir had a head pointing out kids in the school with SN, referring to them as being unaffordable, 'our little friend over there causes us lots of problems' blah blah blah so they do have wys of keeping people away. One school repeatedly declined my request to meet with the head or Senco so we could discuss it's suitability. As the your round was given by the kids in yr 6, we had no chance to chat to anyone about it. The result? Us knowing that they didn't want DS there.

As for saying parents should fight - yes we should, but as most of us use our energy fighting fr medical support ad the extra help they need, along with trying to get them statements for school, there is little time or energy for trying to right a wrong system. I am not saying that all schools are like this, but these experiences are echoed by those of our friends in the very large local. SN community we are part of and also online.

I've NC but we regularly used to rant about SN issues ;-)

Kitty - my DS with a statement, high academic achievement, no social issues but physical issues (cerebral palsy, he can walk independently but not well) was refused entry into our closest junior school BY THE HEADTEACHER. The LEA offered over and above the funding for 1:1 support that he needed but they still refused to take him.

However when my DS's current headteacher rang the junior school head and spoke to them and explained exactly how able in all ways DS is they came to see him and changed their minds.

We probably would have appealed their decision and won if they hadn't changed their minds but the decision not to admit DS, with a statement, was made by the headteacher of the school and was a legal one.

Thanks hairy. And peachy. I get the feeling I should have posted in SN section, I know I sound deluded getting het up on other peoples behalf when I don't even know them type thing. But its my community and the supposed 'outstanding' schools that HAVE turned these children away.

It's the discrimination that gets me het up.

And aerobreaking, I am 100% certain through my own research and knowing the admission distances for the schools in question that the children were eligible.

There is a very unpleasant 'get out' listed on the Statement.

A school place can be refused if the school is deemed unsuitable for the child or if the child being at the school would have a deterimental affect on the other children