AIBU to be getting so cross about this?

[thatisall]

Ok I'm Catholic. I don't believe everything I hear and I have lapses of faith but I am Catholic. My dd goes to a Catholic Primary School. If she was older and had been read this appalling letter encouraging teenagers to sign a document against same sex marriage I would remove her from the school and speak to my solicitor about legal action. That is how much it goes against my belief system and indeed how much it would upset members of my family.

As soon as I heard about this letter I jumped into the debate in support of same sex couples....only to find that this has become a debate about doing away with religion full stop.

The reason I remain a part of the Catholic Church is because of the teaching : " love one another as I have loved you" which I was brought up to understand means...just be nice to each other. We're all different, we think different things, like different things, believe different things, but we should all be treated the same.

IMO this applies to same sex couples but should also apply to people's religion. My religion is being attacked right now and we're all being judged to be bigots and pedophiles, because of a number of bad bad people who call themselves Catholics.

I'm mad about the letter which preaches discrimination which I abhor and Im mad that there are forums and discussion boards right now stating that anyone sending their child to a faith school is offering them up to pedophiles, homophobes and cult leaders, when in fact the great majority of Catholic schools do an amazing job of teaching tolerance.

With respect, Catholics have always been a bit backward and full on with it. I grew up with a God-fearing Irish Catholic mother and had to attend Catholic schools and listen to whichever priest was damning us all to hell that particular week. For that reason I guess it?s fair to say I already have a bit of a beef with Catholicism and whatnot. Even still, I?d be raving mad if pupils (especially primary school pupils) were encouraged to favour a particular belief or support any particular cause etc.

I would not allow my children to attend Catholic schools and have never had them favour any religion because I want them to grow up and learn in an environment that allows for and encourages independent thought. My daughter is sitting her GCSE in RE next month and has enjoyed the subject from start to finish because it covers all religions, beliefs, social, moral and ethical issues. That?s what we need.

Arm people with the information they need to make their own decisions and they?ll always make the right ones.

Parly- they'll ALWAYS make the right ones? Thatisall-where are we being called such things? Have missed something?

No no ? word ?always? shouldn?t be there sorry. Still mean that people turn out far better when armed with the right info and ability to think and speak for themselves.

Ok well then, I agree with what you are saying then

I was raised Catholic and practices like this are what caused me to leave the Church. Some of the dogmas are awful, bordering on wicked. I want no part of it.

I think yabu. You have a certain viewpoint, other people disagree, get over it!

There'll always be people arguing the toss over religion from both sides. The fact is Catholicism, like any other religion, is bascally a club with membership rules. If you don't like the rules, you don't join the club (join someone else's club with rules you like better).

People outside the club can argue about your club's rules til they're blue in the face, but they don't make the rules and nobody making the rules is listening to them. It's pointless getting upset or trying to stop them debating the rules, they won't, and it doesn't make any difference to anyone whether they do or don't anyway (except if you let them upset you) just ignore them.

you cannot really chop and change which part of a religion suits you. You eiter fully on board with it or you are not.

you can still hold values such as treat each other nicely without being part of a religion.

Minimiss, I disagree. I think you can.

Surely if you are picking and choosing your religion becomes 'kitty-ism' rather than catholicism. Is that what you were saying?

Religions each have their own tenets and decision-making structures and people who don't agree with aspects of one religion become heretics, form dissenting sects or move to another religion. They don't say 'actually I know better than the pope what catholicism is', as the structure and tenets of catholicism would be quite clear that that's not the case.

OP I think you have to make a distinction between what is Catholicism and what has been done by Catholics gone bad, who may have been protected by other fallible people but whose actions are not endorsed by the faith. So paedophile priests are clearly bad and their actions not representative of any religious belief. However, the disapproval of same sex marriage is official policy, so is part of what Catholicism is. In time this may change but for now it is representative of the faith and, if you disagree, you are not.

Perhaps you are right, lottie. I have said on a separate thread that I am struggling with many aspects of Catholicism but that doesn't negate the fact that I have been brought up a scouse-Irish Catholic and its a hard thing to shake, even if I should want to. I don't feel I do want to and if I practice my kitty-ism in a Catholic church whilst promoting gay rights, contraceptive education in Africa, pro-choice stance etc then I don't feel that is a bad thing. The church is changing, slowly. I will stay and try to aid that change for the good.

I believe that Faith is more important than religion and although I am Catholic and largely follow that religion...the Bible was written by men and not the hand of God, so I reserve the right to make my own judgement calls on what is and isn't right when it comes to Catholic dogma.

My argument is, that I don't deserve this backlash against my faith. It was brought upon me and others like me by a few bigots who claim to speak for us all. It infuriates me.

OP, I agree with pretty much everything you have said. I find myself in a very similar position to you, am Catholic, raised catholic, have entered my son into the faith. I however feel ugly aspects associated with the faith have wrongly been said to be 'core' elements.

I personally think a lot of teachings have been altered to fit in with some bigoted people, who happen to have power, views.

I am a Catholic and my God is not homophobic.

x-post with thatisall (who said it better)

My DH was brought up a Catholic by a strongly Catholic Irish father. He is now realistically an atheist but still defines himself as a Catholic, if he has to. It's not easy to shake off - even when you no longer really believe anything about God or Christianity or any of it!

But he is also very intolerant of religious bigots and it does seem (probably from media skewing) that there are a fair few of them in the upper echelons (and the rest) of the Catholic Church.

However, I don't agree that this encompasses everyone in the Catholic faith, and I don't agree that it should be "done away with".

"It was brought upon me and others like me by a few bigots who claim to speak for us all."

But the thing is, homophobia, anti-contraception, etc., are brought upon you by a bigot that does speak for you all. Catholicism differs from other branches of Christianity primarily in that it considers the pope to be God'd representative on earth, and the pope is able to make infallible proclamations. This is totally different to, say, the C of E, where the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury is the head of the religion but is chosen by man and has no more of a direct line to god than anyone else. If you don't believe that the pope speaks for you as a catholic, then I don't understand why you see yourself as catholic?

The paedophelia problems indicate a very serious problem in the catholic hierarchy (not just a few rogue individual - its been covered up on a large scale all over the world). But it's possible to believe this rot can be removed from the catholic church, and the church can still have some value (though the probably involvement of the pope in the cover up is problematic). But homophobia, etc., is not only church doctrine, but doctrine given by someone who is infallible has a direct connection to god in a way that is not open to others.

I would say that if your god is not homophobic then you're not really catholic, because your god obviously isn't the same as the pope's.

I was brought up Catholic but I have had to very reluctantly abandon it. I still believe in God, but I can't stand in a church and be represented by someone who considers homosexuals inferior and who is against giving contraception to people who are at serious risk of AIDS. I just can't be part of that. I got married in a church and four of my gay friends attended. They did it happily and without complaint but I now feel bad that they had to participate in a ceremony in an institution that hates and excludes them. I just can't look them in the eye and say "I'm Catholic" because in my mind that means I have signed up for what the Catholic church believes and I haven't. I don't believe gay people should be excluded from marriage, and I don't want my gay friends to think that I do.

In the last few years I've become more clued up on feminism too and I also find it hard to attend a church that will never let me preach just because I'm a woman. I was so devout when I was younger that I would have become a priest if I had been allowed but due to my genitalia I wasn't. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Catholicism is a very pervasive religion - it's not just something that happens on a Sunday, it's part of your surrounding culture, much the way Islam is. That's why it's so hard to let go of. A huge feature of it is the way young believers are fed doctrine and never encouraged to question it. That's fine when you're a child but once you're an adult you have to at some point consciously confront the doctrine and decide whether you really truly believe it in your heart and whether you can actually live by it. There's no point in calling yourself a Catholic if you don't believe the doctrine.

I get what you're saying about people trying to tarnish the entirety of Catholicism. There are definitely some good aspects of the religion. But you say you're Catholic because you believe the basic tenet "love one another as I have loved you." The Catholic church itself does not abide by this tenet - there are very strict criteria for being "loved" by the Catholic church. If you are a straight man, you are set for life. But if you are gay or a woman you are on rocky ground.

"My argument is, that I don't deserve this backlash against my faith. It was brought upon me and others like me by a few bigots who claim to speak for us all. It infuriates me."

Who? The Pope?

Tolerance?? Sorry but your experience of the catholic church is very different to mine. My experience of the catholic church has been all about judgement and very very little tolerance.

Of course it is wrong for people to say that anyone sending their kids to catholic school are offering them up to paedophiles, etc; but I am genuinely surprised at your view/experience of catholicism. And I suspect many people have had a different experience of catholicism to yourself as evidenced by parents on here who start outraged threads when their kids are told stuff at catholic schools that I would see as par for the course from the catholic church e.g. being a single parent is wrong.

The problem is that a core tenet of Catholicism is that the Pope's word goes. I think that's changed in people's minds but it's still officially part of the religion - there is nothing you can do about that. And the Pope is homophobic and full of many ideas which generally aren't nice. There are other Christian denominations which believe similar things - they don't all completely outlaw the entire of some sort of presence in the Eucharist. However, much as it may make more sense for you to work out what you believe and then ascertain which religious denomination fits that, I think someone mentioned on the other thread "cultural Catholicism" which kind of makes that hard. I think you'd be waiting a lot time for the Catholic Church to abandon the concept of the Pope being the head of it, though. The idea of making up your own mind about stuff is essentially what the Protestants were about in the first place.

And agree with the comments about the pope and official policy. The catholic church's line on gay people and gay marriage is official policy endorsed by the pope who is officially god's direct representative on earth. You can't dismiss this as just a "number of bad bad people who call themselves catholics."

And I am still shaking my head in wonder at your statement of "when in fact the great majority of Catholic schools do an amazing job of teaching tolerance." The official line of the catholic church is not one of tolerance and imo this does permeate catholic schools.

Catholicism is not a religion where you can pick and choose wht you believe unless you ignore key elements such as the pope being god's representative on earth and the importance of obedience in the faith.

I'm also quite surprised that you believe Catholicism teaches tolerance. It doesn't. It just doesn't. Being gay is wrong, having sex outside marriage is wrong, using contraception is wrong, being a woman is wrong if you want to be priest and so on and so on. A basic belief in Catholicism is that it is the One True Faith so inevitably all other religions are wrong too. That doesn't really sound like tolerance to me.

Catholic comes from two Greek words, Catha & Holu meaning "Welcome Everyone" Funny, eh?

Yes, it is funny and doesn't fit with the teachings of catholicism such as the pope being infallible - the current pope is preaching anti gay and other exclusionary messages. The fact that one of the seven spiritual works of mercy is to adminish the sinner and that obedience is a central part of the "one true faith".

I honestly think OP, and some others on this thread, that you don't really understand Catholicism at all.

zombie I am beginning to see that I have been taught a very different type of Catholicism
Genuinely this whole situation is making me question who I am in relation to religion. Maybe I am Christian not Catholic? I don't know...but i don't know any Catholics like the angry Catholics I am seeing/hearing/reading about atm