to feel ambivalent at best about 'outstanding' schools?

[TartyMcFarty]

DD is only 2.2. Despite not knowing where exactly we'll be by the time she's school age, I'm starting to think about the schools close by. We're in catchment for an 'outstanding' primary, but I'm reluctant to send her there. Other schools within walking distance, but out of catchment, are 'good', so I suppose in that sense it's not a major predicament. I just wonder whether I'm being irresponsible.

My misgivings relate to my passing knowledge of a different school; a feeder primary to the secondary I work at, also rated 'outstanding'. I'm familiar with some of the practices at the school in two ways: obviously as their pupils are arriving in my classes in Year 7, but also because my cousin has been working there as a NQT and subsequently with QTS, for the last 18 months.

This school is renowned for its academic achievements: a significant proportion of its children come to secondary having achieved L5 in English and/or maths and science. However what we're seeing is that this isn't carried over immediately into Year 7: entry level assessment sees a large number of those 'L5s' dropping to L4, or merely scraping through.

From a different perspective I've been watching the pressure my cousin is under from the SLT of the school, who anticipate an inspection and are squeezing staff accordingly, not in a supportive way. As it happens, I also know a far more experienced teacher there, who is also feeling the weight of Ofsted pressing down on her.

Furthermore my cousin claims she has been directed to teach to the tests this term, at the expense of other subjects and activities. If these Year 6s don't achieve their L5s, I suspect her professional life will be made hell by the HT (who by the way, won't 'allow' union presence in the school, despite strongly advocating strikes over pensions).

I don't want DD subjected to an early 'education' all about KS2 outcomes. I don't want her taught by teachers under the kosh, driven by SLT to force results out of their pupils.

I haven't done enough research to make an informed decision yet, but this is my instinct. I'm starting to put the feelers out locally by talking to other parents - my neighbour has already described our catchment school as 'regimented' at KS1.

Phew, sorry about the long post, it's helping to organise my train of thought although I know it's not quite coherent yet.

Any thoughts? Particularly from anyone who's made a choice between 'outstanding' and 'good' or 'satisfactory'? (For someone who's ambivalent about Ofsted, I'm pretty fixated on their terminology!)

Hmm. If that sounds like a stealth boast, it's not intentional!

The fact it is in an 'outstanding' school is irrelevant.

You know that 'outstanding' doesn't necessarily mean it is..(or isn't).

So ignore the rating and choose the school based on what you think is important.

and then wake up and realise you can't control it/pay school fees/move/find god

Had 2 Dcs go through school and 2 now in High school.

I picked them on where their friends were going, catchment,likability of head and teachers at open day, cleanliness and brightness of buildings. Politeness and enthusiasm if children showing me around and last of all a quick perusal of ofsted report to ensure school not actually failing.

If you are lucky enough to have a choice go for a school which feels right for your child. It's the only thing you can do. Do you like the HT, do the children seem engaged? It's very hard, and the outstanding label can be a heavy weight.

Agree wholeheartedly with very sensible thebody. A refreshing change from the normal attitudes to Ed on here!

My DSs went to an outstanding infants and it is trully is very good. Their results are very good but so is everything else, the breadth and variety in the curriculum, the teachers, headteacher, the management of the school.

However, you have to like the feel of the place too. The boys school is a really happy place and you got the feeling that whilst the children were encouraged and pushed they weren't being forced to do things that were beyond them for the sake of the results. I know we were very lucky especially as it is next door to our house so we didn't need to look any further.

On the other hand the juniors my two went to/go to is satisfactory. They struggle to add value to the children who come up from the infants who are already ahead of the average. Mine went there because it was next door to us obviously, but the satisfactory rating didn't put me off or cause me to think about going elsewhere. There is the same caring, encouraging atmosphere as the infants and the same opportunities to do things that aren't totally curriculum driven. Same applies to DS1's secondary - satisfactory (although apparently let down on the day of the last inspection by a tiny group of children determined to mess things up which they managed which just goes to show the whole snap-shot nature of Ofsted really). There were other better Ofsted rated schools but we were happy with the place.

To me it is just one in a number of things to look at, certainly not the most important.

Like Bertha I wouldn't tar all Outstanding schools with the same brush. Ignore your preconceptions, and what the ofsted report says. We went mainly on the basis of our own feelings, and a checklist my cousin (a teacher of many years) gave me. Most of what she said to look out for is covered in Bertha's post. Also little things. When you look into a classroom, is there someway for the teacher to write things on the board or on a flip chart? Or is there only an interactive board? Both apparantly are a sign of a well run school. If you walk past some children in the corridors ask them something, like directions perhaps (are those the loos? Is your music room down here) to see how they respond - children with a pride in their school will be proud to answer you (even if they're so shy you can't hear a word that they're saying).

We also stopped parents at the playground whose children had on uniforms for the schools we were looking at, and asked them what they REALLY though. The school we went to in the end is rated Outstanding, but on the basis of this I'd have been just as happy with our second choice (which at the time had been given notice to improve - and did and is now outstanding too). Our second choice was second purely on one thing only - the first choice school had a music room, and a music cirriculum, while the second choice school didn't. Other than that I'd say they were even.

So go visit and at the end of the day, trust your instincts (especially as you work in schools yourself, you'll know if they're faking it to get those results or not).

I moved my dd to an outstanding school from a failing one. Her outstanding school does well in sats despite the significant number of kids with SNs they take in. There is no pressure on the lids the teaching and learning just seems to be better imo

My dd is in Yr 6 and has been assessed as at secure level 5 since the end of Year 5. And the school she goes to has been Satisfactory for its previous two inspections and has just recently been upgraded to Good.

I really cannot stand all the hysteria about Ofsted ratings. It seems to send otherwise apparently sane people absolutely over the edge into complete bonkersness. And now our school has a new superhead who is obsessed (understandably, given the baying for blood going on from some parents) with homework and sats. I am glad dd is leaving the school and feel a bit sorry for ds who has another three years to go.

I'd go with your instinct ... We chose a Satisfactory over an Outstanding and haven't looked back!

In my town there are a whole range of schools, almost all Outstanding or Good, and those schools are very different from each other. I choose many years ago to send my kids to one school classed Outstanding, which was and is very very different from another nearby school which was also Outstanding. Another school got better SATs results, but on looking around I didn't like the Head, my own DD on talking to kids at secondary from that school thinks they cheat over help with SATs.

Don't judge by the label, go and look. What suits you and your child maybe very different from what suits another child. Schools can be very different from each other.

Ofsted do not just give labels to schools which are clones of each other (and never has).

I think the baying may well get worse when they drop the satsifactory rating and replace it with the 'requires improvement' rating instead. I get that being satisfactory for too long is not ideal but it will give some parents another stick to beat the school with.

My DC's went to an 'outstanding' primary school because it's our local school. It sounds like it's very familiar to the one you've described. DC1 was reasonably happy, but DC2 had two very unhappy years there. I often felt sad about the culture of the school and the sterile nature of the work set for the children. (I don't mean routine things - I'm all for practising number bonds and handwriting). On the other hand, the local church school which I helped at on a couple of occasions had a much nicer atmosphere. It has a really good feeling of community about it and a thoughtful HT. The children were allowed to have more choice (and therefore involvement and pride) in projects, performances etc. Not such a good inspection report.
My DC now at secondary school have commented on the lack of time they were allowed to spend at school on art and science compared to the children from the other feeder primary schools.
If I had my time over again I'd send them to a different, nicer school.

Discounting all "oustanding" schools purely on Ofsted rating is as daft as discounting all "satisfactory" ones.

I'd be looking at catchment area, physical environment, extra curricular activities, and facilities such as library, pool etc. I would read the Ofsted reports on line, but take them with a large pinch of salt, and try more to talk to local parents and kids about behaviour, ethos and 'feel'.

Not all outstanding schools will be like the one you describe. My ds's started primary at a school that was good when they began, and is outstanding now, but I can't say I have noticed any different. We chose it because it was a school with teachers that genuinely seemed to care about the children and put a lot of effort in with them, the only thing that has changed is probably the way they do their paperwork, which I couldn't care less about.

While I would be more than happy with a school that is rated good, I wouldn't use one that was satisfactory. They have to be lacking quite a lot to only get satisfactory.

I have one ds at an outstanding grammar school and the other will go to an outstanding comp for secondary.the two schools couldn't be more different, but each will meet each of my child's needs I think, so that's all that matters.

I'd say consult Ofsted reports, and also talk to other parents with children at the school. Make a judgement based on a variey of information.
Yes, it is stupid to tar all schools in any category with the same brush. Some schools that are Outstanding are on a downward slope that will be recognised at the next inspection. However, another Outstanding school could be fantastic.
If you look at a school in Special Measures, notice to improve or maybe Satisfactory, just bear in mind that a heck of a lot of work should be going on in that school to improve things. You could have a look at governing body minutes (which should include the head's reports) and get a feel from the information and data given there.

Our local school is rated as good but the warmth and enthusiasm that shines from the pupils and teachers really makes it a brilliant school. There is a very high turnover of pupils because of it's location and despite that all the kids achieve their potential.

The kids are encouraged from reception to take control of their learning journey and this helps the kids to feel that they have some decisions they can make about what study.

p.s. For a school to improve in category, particularly since the new Ofsted framework came in this year, a school will definitely have to improved. It's not about paperwork, the inspectors will have seen proof of improved rates of pupil progress. In a Good or Outstanding school they will have assured themselves that ALL pupils are making the best progress that they can, that the quality of teaching is good or outstanding (against clear criteria), and that pupils who need help, for whatever reason, are getting it.
Be aware that the new Ofsted evaluation criteria will really test schools, and I think the reports will really mean something. Certainly, one of the schools I am a governor at has just had an Ofsted (and were Good), and the report was spot on.

To be brief OP I agree. Go and have a look and see what you feel. I have taught in both "good" and "outstanding" schools and the label of "outstanding" does not necessarily mean it is a school that will suit you or your child. There really is very little between those two categories from what i can see.

I chose the 'satisfactory' school over the 'outstanding' school when we movedhouse 5 years ago. Dd1 was going into year 2 and we were lucky enough to be able to visit both schools and both had a space if we wanted it. The 'satisfactory' school was very small (60 in whole school), her class was mixed yr2/3 and only had 20 pupils in it. She was allowed to work with pupils of her own level in a number of subjects, no matter which year group they were in. The outstanding school had 90 in each year group, and was very regimented with academic achievements valued much more than personal growth and well rounded children.

We have since moved again and that time I chose a 'good' school over the 'outstanding' school. The staff at the outstanding school were rude (brusque is perhaps a better word) when we spoke to them, the buildings were delapidated, and they just didn't seem very welcoming. The good school felt much more like a family, even though it was much bigger than the school she was coming from. Everyone seemed incredibly friendly and the extra-curricular activities on offer were valued by pupils and staff alike.

So yes, we chose what felt best for our dd, rather than chosing by Ofsted.

This is interesting because we are currently deciding about whether DD should go to an 'outstanding' versus a 'satisfactory' :). Satisfactory is nearer, and she goes to pre-school there; but the headteacher when he talked to us, seemed so obsessed with his SAT results and how the authority had discounted something or other, it really put us off. So IMHO there are ways in which a 'satisfactory' can be a bit obsessed with results too. The head at the 'outstanding' school was a little smug, too, but the atmosphere was very friendly and the children were charming. :)