What is the reasonable thing to do here?

[squashedbanana]

I finished things with my son's father after he was emotionally abusive towards my daughter and I

At the moment due to my sons age and him being breastfed I am always present during contact. My ex has been talking about the future when he has our son overnight and I am not sure what to do. We broke up when I was pregnant because he threatened my daughter and was verbally abusive towards me. We had a family support worker at the time and when I told her the reason for the breakup she said she didn't think any contact should be unsupervised until he had anger management and parenting classes.

He became involved in our lives again when DS was about seven months old and we decided to try again, he didn't apologise for how he behaved previously but said it was due to him being in a 'bad place'. Admittedly I was having complications with the pregnancy and I had lost the previous pregnancy and things were looking to take the same course, thankfully they didn't but it was a very stressful time for both of us. So agreeing to start with a blank slate we decided to try again.

However, it wasn't long before he was up to his old behaviour and I ended things. This time though, instead of being jealous of my daughter for taking my attention away from him, he was jealous when my son wanted to come to me instead of him. He criticised me to my daughter in front of me, critcised and mocked my daughter to me, he was saying things to our son, playing him off against me - let's just ignore mummy, she's mean (I wasn't rising to the bait), we're going to ignore her, don't listen to mummy etc. I ended things again after six weeks

Anyway, financially he is fantastic towards our son and DS responds well to him. However my ex has a very short fuse and I have had to tell him to calm down when he got frustrated trying to dress a wriggling DS. He has been known to throw things in a rage and I can't talk to him at all without him becoming aggressive and defensive. He's never wrong, it's always me with the problem. If he loses his temper it's always because me or DD have been winding up, though our crime could just have been being in the same room as him.

His sister told me he is not good at controlling his emotions and is not good with kids but I should be helping him (she told me this after we'd split up, by that time it was like no shit Sherlock!)

I posted about my ex on the red flags thread in Relationships, think it's the first page

So, what should I do about unsupervised contact? Allow it? He hasn't hurt DS, doesn't drink (round children), smoke or do drugs. I can't talk to him about it because of him getting aggressive and when I raised the subject in an email about supervised contact till he had taken anger management and parenting classes he told me I was making him out to be a monster and there was no point in him having any contact with DS in that case (This was discussed before we decided to make a go of things a second time, maybe he thinks things are different now because I agreed to try again, but the truth is, his behaviour is no better than it was before)

My gut instinct is to have supervised contact until DS is old enough to say if Daddy has been rough with him or been shouting and threatening. Is this reasonable?

oh god that was so long, sorry. I wanted to give enough info for people to advise and didn't want to drip feed. Here's a for refreshment after getting through that lot

He can have unsupervised contact when he can behave like a reasonable human being - which I doubt will be any time this millennium tbh.

First step is for him to recognize that he's in the wrong. Exactly how likely do you think that is?

I really would go with my gut instinct especially if he struggles to keep his cool when dressing his own son!

Do you have a solicitor helping you with arranging contact/ writing letters?

I wouldn't let him be unsupervised with any child never mind my own as he has proven he can't be trusted to keep his temper.

I would be reluctant to let it happen even when DS could speak / say as any charismatic bully could easily extract silence from a child, if he is snide enough to say things like lets ignore mummy he is snide enough to say mummy won't love you if you say you aren't happy with me (or similar mind games)

He gave up his right to have any say in it when he was abusive to his childs mother and her child.

I suppose it must be hard when you have loved someone - but anyone who tells you children are resilient only has to go on mn and read the abuse threads look around at all the fucked up adults in the world to know that is a crock of shit!! Your DS may not understand it but he needs you to shield him from this man who has no self-control over his anger.

he deffo needs some anger management and parenting classes..there is no way he should have unsupervised access..

I'm going to try to look at it how I think a Judge would.

Do you have any evidence/proof of his abuse and poor behaviour towards the kids?

Do you ever need to calm down when the kids are wriggling/playing up?

How would you feel if you shouted at your kids and he decided you shouldn't be allowed to be on your own with them?

From what you've posted and without proof (if you have none) I can't see a court insisting this man shouldn't have unsupervised contact with his child.

Not very likely at all Purple, he's never admitted to being in the wrong before, if I tried telling him I didn't like the way he spoke to me or DD he just got aggressive and said whatever he needed to to shut me up, never apologised

But he is being reasonable in that he's paying maintenance and wanting a relationship with DS where so many don't and just walk away after a relationship ends, I don't want DS to lose his dad. Shame his dad is such an immature idiot

I don't have a solicitor Tired, do you think I should? I don't even know my ex's address, he's sharing a flat with his brother, I only have his parents' address. He doesn't have parental responsibility and I have been loathe to involve a solicitor incase he does the same and then goes for PR

At the same time, he is incredibly lovely and attentive with DS, it's just his temper and total disrespect for me that worries me

When he physically threatened my DD he said he was just being authorative, his idea of discipline it seems is to ask once, shout once then do things by force :(

He knows I don't smack or drag DD round, discipline doesn't involve force and when I called him on his threatening her he told me I was a terrible mother who had never disciplined her properly and she was the worst child he'd ever met.

I can't bear to think of him dragging DS around :(

See that's what I am worried about Worra, I don't think I judge would agree with supervised contact as I don't have proof, but if he does lose his temper with DS and hurts him, by then it's too late

I don't think I judge would agree with supervised contact

Your support worker said that he shouldn't have unsupervised contact, though, that is what i would go on.

It's very hard to put in writing the subtle behaviour that is emotional abuse, but it was there and there is no reason as to why it won't continue, towards your DS.

The truth is that you shouldn't have got back with him, i remember your other posts.

He shouldn't have unsupervised contact,unless there has been a change and you won't know that unless you are involved with the contacts.

Read the relationship threads, to understand the lasting damage of emotional/aggressive abuse/behaviour towards a child.

You are mearly looking to protect your DS.

His sister told me he is not good at controlling his emotions and is not good with kids

Take that a a major warning bell. Outsiders who know him and your situation are telling you to be wary.

A father out of control throwing things and shouting is terrifying for a child. I would be worried that he doesn't try to damage the relationship between your children and yourself.

Your DS is coming to an age where he will copy behaviour.

Get evidence of his behaviour. How old is your DD? Has she talked to anyone about how he behaved towards her? Can you get something in writing from the Family support worker you were in contact with before? Can you get someone to pop around when he has contact?
Even just keep a diary of events, one after each contact, recording both positive and negative behaviour. This is all evidence.

As his sister has acknowledged that he has a problem would she be prepared (and would you be happy with her doing so) being present at his time with your children? I don't think you have grounds for going to court, and if you did I doubt they would act on it. She, one assumes, has the welfare of your children at heart and might be willing to help out unil your son is older.

When you start counting a man taking an interest in his child and bearing financial responsibility as fortunate you are in trouble - this is the basic minimum you would expect from any decent bloke.

OK there are worse but why are you comparing him to the lowest standard possible?

He has strayed a long way from the path of what a good dad would do so there will be repercussions and he will have to accept the consequences of his actions. The fact that he isn't utterly rotten through and through in every department doesn't alter the fact that he has a deeply regrettable temper and a nasty turn of mind. What is he like when drunk? I think you see someones true inside character when drunk as the inhibitions are down. I bet he is aggressive?

But the thing is Debsbear whether she has grounds for going to court or not, her ex may well take her to court if he doesn't agree to supervised contact.

It might not be a bad thing though as CAFCASS would probably speak to the DD depending on her age...and probably the Sister and Support Worker.

I know Birds, it was a stupid thing to do and I regret it. I would regret getting into a relationship with him the first time if not for DS

He has spoken about the future and overnight access as in, "I suppose I shall have to get safety gates at some point for when he comes over to mine" but he hasn't actually asked for unsupervised contact so I am not going to raise it. When he does I shall remind him of what I said before. I should/would have said something when he spoke about the safety gate but I wanted to avoid a confrontation

The fact you can't discuss parental matters for fear of a confrontation is reason enough to keep his relationship with your DS under close control IMO.

I hope things go smoothly for you from now on. You are still allowing him a relationship, albeit in a safe way - he should be grateful for that as plenty wouldn't. So if he tries to push and say you should be grateful he is around and pays maintenance, you could turn the tables and say he should be grateful he has his DS at all!.

Birds, that is what I am worried about too, him damaging my relationship with DS, I could feel it starting which is what led me to finish things again once and for all

Mummy, DD is 11. I can get in touch with the family support worker, I think she still works for the same department. I will start to keep a diary, but things are different now as I don't want him in my home anymore as he can't/won't watch his behaviour in front of the children so all contact is at a swimming pool, cafe or playgroup where he is on best behaviour

Debs, his sister won't back me up. Despite her saying that, when I ended it she called me a fruitcake because I said he behaved like a bully

Gin, he won't accept any repercussions because he never acknowledges he's done anything wrong. When drunk he mocks me and is hyper sensitive which leads to aggression. Even sober, but tired, he would mock me and start an argument and if I stood up for myself he would get animated like it was a sport and become worse. He gets out of everything by either becoming defensive, aggressive or crying and acting like the victim. Urgh, what was I thinking??!!

I shouldn't have given him a second chance, but he was lovely until I got pregnant. Too good to be true at the beginning, just like in the red flags thread. In fact I wish I had read that thread before meeting him

Then in all honesty OP, I would try to keep a diary of any poor behaviour and (as difficult as it is) get as much proof witnesses as you can.

Just in case it ends up in court.

You also need to remind yourself that throwing money around is a common habbit of his, rather than sorting out his behaviour.

If he takes you to court, the former support worker will be asked to contribute to the information gathering.

I don't want him in my home anymore as he can't/won't watch his behaviour in front of the children so all contact is at a swimming pool, cafe or playgroup where he is on best behaviour

And you think that it would be resonable to allow him to have your DS unsupervised?

The answer is in everyone of your replies.

It was a bit of a non post really, as I already know, for me, it's not reasonable. I was wondering what other people's opinions were, if it was a waste of time and I was just going to cause more stress for myself as a court would allow it anyway and also affirmation that I was being reasonable for when I do have the inevitable conversation with my ex about it

Emotional abuse is having as much importance placed on it as is physical, it has it's own section on CP plans, so don't discount it.

Every judge and SW/FSW knows that it is difficult to put across what it is an E abuser is doing. But they also know the damage done by it.

You have got out of the relationship before it has got to violence ,but not before there was threating behaviour. Tbh, i think that you are now minimising it.

If you had of stayed i am sure that your children would have been adversely affected by it, that is what you go on.

OK you regret your involvement with him (tho not your DS) but what I find refreshing is that you have broken free and know your own mind on the matter. So many people in relationships with men like him don't seem to be able to break free enough to actually draw the line, and are often wavering even when they know and everyone says he'll never change and he is an arse. So your DD and DS will see what a strong woman is and that bad behaviour is not tolerable - those are good things. :)