AIBU in asking someone to explain the school system?

[BananasInBloomers]

I'm lost every year when it comes to the school threads as I live in Ireland. Generally we have private schools (fee-paying) and state schools. In my area we have the primary school (RC),educate together (non dom) and the irish school (irish speaking). You put your name down for your favoured school and I have never heard of someone not getting in.

Can someone explain?

Well in over populated areas, there are too many children and not enough schools...that's about it really.

It's not as simple as attending the closest school to you because often it's just full up.

We need more schools, although lots of schools are doing their best to cram kids in so they're packed to the rafters (here in London anyway)

Ok so parents have to put names down in a few schools to get a place,right?

What would happen if a child didn't get a place in any of the schools?

You want someone to explain the school system in the UK?

I can only speak about the primary school system. Things have changed recently.

You now have three kinds of state school. Local authority/community schools (these can be religious schools), academy (run by a private sector organisiation), and free schools (really new, not sure what the definition is yet - first ones opened in this school year). The latter two are not answerable to the local authority but directly to the Dpt of Education.

Then you have independant schools (fee paying), and public schools (fee paying).

To apply to a primary school, you need to fill in a form with the local authority listing in order of preference the three schools you want to attend.

Most primary schools that are under local authority operate on proximity to the school as their only entrance requirement. However there are others that get priority.

First priority goes to children in care.
Second priority goes to children with siblings already at the school.
Then children get into the school according to how close they are until all the places are filled.

The school does not know what your preference is. All applications are treated as the same. If you get accepted into two or all three of the schools on your list, then the one that is your top preference is offered and you're taken off the lists for the other two without even knowing that you were accepted.

Where a school is oversubscribed, possibly because there aren't enough schools in the area or it is outstanding, or it is a very small school, then there's a chance you won't get in.

If you aren't accepted into any of the three schools on your list, your local authority is obliged to offer you a place. This will be at the nearest school with a vacancy - which may not be at all that near you, and is likely to be a poorly run school with low results.

That's the theory. In practice I know of at least two parents who did not get any of the their preferences, and were not offered an alternative by the local authority.

Where I live there was a huge amount of houses built during the celtic tiger years so the school built several extensions and got more teachers. Is this not an option for some schools?
There were 6 classes of junior infants (5-6yrs) this year,previous years there were 7/8 classes. 30 children in each.

What would happen if a child didn't get a place in any of the schools?

The Local Authority will find one (that the parents might not think suitable) and they'll have to attend that school while remaining on a waiting list for another one.

In some cases, the LA have nothing at all to offer and the child has to remain at home until a place is found.

As far as I know anyway.

Ok,I think I get it. Thanks for enlightening me.

Gosh poor kids having to be at home.

OP, when my 20yr old DS started our local Primary school in 1995, there were 2 classes in every year.

Now there are 4 in every year and 5 in year 1.

The LA are still pressing them to take more kids but the size of the playground and lunch hall (no room to extend) means they're already staggering play and lunch...and staging school concerts/Nativity plays are a nightmare trying to fit everyone in.

If you don't get a place in one of the schools you applied to, the local authority is obliged to offer you an alternative. If you turn that down, then the local authority considers that you've taken on responsibility for your child's education, and is legally dissolved of responsibility to provide further alternatives. Some local authorities can be quite nasty on this point.

You can appeal. I know of quite a few people who've won places on appeal. In some instances though this can lead to larger classes than you might like. My friend's are at a school where their son is in a reception class with 32 children for this reason.

As someone mentioned, a lot of it is down to poor planning, and there simply aren't enough school places. We have three outstanding primaries in close proximity, and a fourth outstanding just down the road, and yet they're all still way oversubscribed. To top it off, the council has gone and built a new housing estate right next to one of the schools. It is a one form entry, so when the estate is open it is unlikely you'll get into the school unless you live on the street, and possible that if there's too many siblings you may not even get in then. Oh and they then went ahead and built some more housing association flats close by.

It is great that they're creating more affordable and social housing, but someone needs to join up the dots. We don't have enough school places at primary or secondary level!

Where I live there was a huge amount of houses built during the celtic tiger years so the school built several extensions and got more teachers. Is this not an option for some schools?
There were 6 classes of junior infants (5-6yrs) this year,previous years there were 7/8 classes. 30 children in each.

Those in authority don't seem to think ahead.

So do the kids have lunch in the classrooms or in a canteen area?
Our school they have them in the classroom (30 children in each,avr 7 classes per grade,8 grades) and then out in the yard. Theres several yards,one for jnr/snr infants,one for first/second class,one for third/fourth class and one for fifth/sixth class.

The other main difference between the Uk and Ireland is the OFSTED ratings which parents use as their main selection criteria when considering local schools. All this seems to have done is ensure that those who can afford it move house to get their kids into the "best" schools while those who can't, have to "make do" with the less desirable schools.

There are no league tables in Ireland so apart from those who opt to send their kids to fee-paying schools, children just go to their local school and there is much more of a mix of backgrounds and abilities in every classroom. Unfortunately there are no Teaching Assistants and with recent cutbacks, it's not unheard of to have classes of up to 35 pupils (except in the most disadvantaged areas where class sizes are kept lower). It's also becoming increasingly difficult to get additional support for pupils who need it (again due to cutbacks).

Why is it that 30 odd kids is seen as really large? When I was in primary in the late eighties, early nineties we were averaging around 35 per class and we were the smallest school in the town. We didn't have any Teaching Assistants back then which schools do now. I just don't understand why it is seen as bad.

jenfraggle I guess that there are 2 main differences between then and now. The first is the inclusion of children with specific learning and physical needs in mainstream classrooms so teachers have a much wider variety of abilities to cater for. There is also a much wider variety of diagnosed learning difficulties than there were in the past (and rightly so).

The second difference is the curriculum. When I was at school, there were 34 in my class but we focused mainly on the core subjects, plus History & Geography. Art was done once a week, Music too, and what we now call Science was known as "Nature Studies" and was mainly taught at the change of each season! Now there are 12 subjects on the curriculum for all grades of pupils (in Ireland) - and they wonder why literary and numeracy rates are not what they used to be?! In addition to this, the teaching methods have to take into account the various ways in which pupils learn so it isn't all "chalk and talk" which we would have been used to. Pupils have much more hands on experience of the subjects, which is obviously better for their long-term retention of information, but is much more time consuming in terms of planning, delivery and assessment.

Bearing all of the above in mind, it is evident that pupils in smaller classes will stand a much better chance of achieving their learning objetives than those in bigger classes, where there is more demand on teachers' time, attention and resources.

So yes, we all had bigger classes and we coped, but the average school day is very different from our day!

In all fairness theres two TA's in DD class as there are two children with SN,my DD included. Theres also an ASD unit attachted to the school.

Bananas That's great that your DD has access to an SNA (Special needs assistant) as a lot of kids who need ones are not getting one due to the cutbacks. It really does make a difference to her experiences and that of the other children's in the class. I hope that she is doing well and enjoying school :)

However, an SNA is not the same as a Teaching Assistant, as the SNA is there to fulfill your daughter's needs in accessing the curriculum. In the UK, a TA is an assistant to the classroom teacher and not only assigned to one individual child. They can help out with things such as preparation of resources, working with small groups etc. That is not the job of an SNA (although you will hear stories of SNAs being asked to fulfill many jobs outside of their remit unfortunately)