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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that it's about time the government rethink the wind issue??????

232 replies

ohanotherone · 17/04/2012 09:50

I've spent some time investigating wind farms. I thought they were clean and green, sadly, I now realise they are not. It seems we are all being taken for a ride, a ride that will destroy our beautiful nations. The plans to cover Wales and Scotland with turbines are on a scale that many people do not comprehend. Am I being unreasonable to think that the government should objectively look at the facts and finally ditch wind power????

Here are some of the issues......looking at these factors broadens the debate from a "you are a Nimby" level, which is the level the last government wanted the debate to be as it was in their interests to do so.

1.Landscape and wildlife
2.Unreliable energy source requiring backup
3.No reduction in CO2
4.Additional grid infrastructure
5.Subsidies
6.Employment, business and property

  1. Landscape and wildlife
Windfarms reduce landscape value, kill birds and compromise wildlife habitats. They also compromise essential environmental services.

? It was established in the Public Inquiry into the Cumulative Effect of Windfarms in Powys in 2001 that windfarms always have a negative effect on the landscape; the question is whether the level of negative impact remains acceptable. The conclusions reached by the Planning Inspectorate indicated clearly that the cumulative impact of such proposals on the visual and recreational quality of the upland areas in Powys would be unacceptable; these conclusions were agreed in full by the National Assembly for Wales. The height of turbines has increased by over 40 metres since then, increasing the impact and area visually affected immeasurably.

? Installing a manmade structure out of proportion with its surroundings such as a large wind turbine affects individual perception and understanding of the view, natural and cultural landscape and distorts people&rquot;s engagement with what they see; the value of citizen&rquot;s engagement with their surroundings is acknowledged by government.

? "We need to help people appreciate the historic environment and 'read the landscape' - not just the obvious elements such as castles and chapels, but also the pattern of quarries, ancient trackways, field systems and cairns. The rewards are not simply personal satisfaction for individuals. The historic environment creates our 'sense of place' and therefore our sense of shared belonging and of roots. Nurturing a living sense of what it is to be a citizen of Wales is a key priority for the Assembly Government, and citizenship cannot be a theoretical concept. It is about emotional ties and imagined community, as much with previous generations as with ones to come." © Crown Copyright 2009. Heritage Minister's Ambition for the Welsh Historic Environment

? James Pearce-Higgins et. al. (Journal of Applied Ecology vol 46, Issue 6 pages 1139- 1357) have found that birds, including buzzards, golden plovers, curlews and red grouse, are abandoning countryside around upland windfarms. The study used upland areas because they have the strongest winds and so are preferred by wind-farm developers and are favoured, by some of Britain's most vulnerable bird species. They found evidence for localised reductions in bird breeding density; birds tended to stop nesting within half a mile of any turbine. Since the effect extends around each machine, up to three quarters of a square mile could be affected by one turbine. Results highlight significant avoidance of otherwise apparently suitable habitat close to turbines in at least seven of the 12 species studied. The impact is not huge now because there are still some areas without wind farms but the researchers warn that, with hundreds more planned, plus an increase in the size of turbines, the effect could become much worse.

? Where wind farms are proposed, their development should not contravene the protective measures that apply under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981; Schedule 1 Birds, Schedule 5 Animals and Schedule 8 Plants.

2.Unreliable energy source requiring backup
Electricity from windfarms is unreliable and cannot be stored. Wind is an intermittent and unpredictable energy source; it can provide neither the base-load nor the load-following power required by the Grid. It is beyond dispute that windfarms require at least 90% backup from reliable controllable energy sources.

? National Grid data shows that windfarms cannot be relied upon to provide us with energy when we most need it. The cold weather of December/January 2009/10 illustrated this problem. With high pressure and a lack of wind only 0.2%, of a possible 5% of the UK's energy was generated by wind turbines during this time of greatest need.

? Jeremy Nicholson, director of the Energy Intensive Users Group (EIUG), gave warning that this unreliability could turn into a crisis when the UK is reliant on 6,400 turbines for a quarter of UK electricity. He said the shortfall in power generated by wind during cold snaps seriously undermined the Government's pledge to build nine major new wind 'super farms' by 2020. "If we had this 30 gigawatts of wind power, it wouldn't have contributed anything of any significance this winter," he said. "The current cold snap is a warning that our power generation and gas supplies are under strain and it is getting worse."

? In Germany their 20,000MW of wind energy require 90% back-up from conventional sources; indeed Rupert Steele of Scottish Power/Iberdrola admitted on 22.4.09 that the 30GW of wind proposed for the UK would require 25GW of back up. What this means in practice is that as more wind farms come on line they require a greater proportion of back up by reliable generation; 90% according to EON Netz.

? E.ON said that it could take 50 gigawatts of renewable electricity generation to meet the EU target. But it would require approximately 90% of this amount as back up from coal and gas plants to ensure supply when intermittent renewable supplies were not available. This will require a significant increase in Britain's generating capacity, at considerable cost, simply to maintain the current level of secure supply, as evidenced by National Grid's own estimates, which show that by 2025 the Nation needs a 21% increase in generating capacity to meet a 2% increase in demand.

? The impact of ensuring reliable backup is:

  • Capital cost of building 90% more generation than we actually need in inefficient plant that will give lower return to investors as it will frequently be idling rather than producing energy for which they will be paid. UK government has already committed £10 billion to back-up generation in 2011.
  • Increased wear and tear on plant that has to be turned up and down with less than four hours notice. Higher costs of maintenance and reduced life of machinery.
  • Reluctance to build conventional power plants where the maintenance and reduced life are unknown costs.
  • Increased payments from National Grid to generators when they are required to go off-line, as their generation is not required. Wind is most expensive so National Grid uses all available wind as first option and compensate conventional generators when the wind is blowing. In Scotland (01.05.11) wind generation exceeded demand and National Grid paid wind farm companies £1.2 million to switch off the turbines. In 2012 National Grid paid windfarm companies £25 million to switch off line.
  1. No reduction in CO2
There is no evidence that increasing the number of windfarms is reducing national CO2 emissions in UK or any other country adopting wind energy.

? Recent work by Fred Udo is based on EIRGRID real time data on carbon emissions and wind energy production. His abstract states: "In the absence of hydro-energy the CO2 production of the conventional generation increases with wind energy penetration. The data shows that the reduction of CO2 emissions is at most a few % if gas fired generation is used for balancing a 30% share of wind energy."

? A carbon payback equation should be part of each Environmental Statement. The Scottish Government has made an algorithm to calculate this for peat land. (Ref: The Scottish Government Calculating carbon savings from wind farms on Scottish peat lands - A New Approach www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/06/25114657/9)

? A full carbon equation should count of the carbon cost of:

  • Building, transportation to site and construction
  • Grid connection
  • Running a turbine
  • Clean coal, gas, nuclear power stations running less efficiently, developing and maintaining the back up power stations
  • Upgrading highways
  • Peat displacement by an average of 300cu m concrete per turbine, as well as aggregate for turbine bases, crane pads, sub-stations and access roads.
  • Forestry clearance
  • The Capacity Credit, i.e. the percentage of wind generated energy that actually displaces conventionally generated energy. Bearing in mind that a percentage of this is nuclear and therefore would be carbon free anyway.

? There is no evidence that wind is an alternative to nuclear. As early as 1994 Welsh Affairs Select Committee, the British Wind Energy Association (now RenewablesUK) have admitted that the future is a mix of nuclear and renewables.

  1. Additional grid infrastructure
Additional grid connection is needed to meet the installed capacity of wind installation; increasing the number and size of transmission infrastructure and cost to the consumer; increasing impact on landscape value.
  1. Subsidies
No developer will build windfarms without subsidies. Electricity companies are compelled to buy this expensive electricity. Both are funded by an extra charge on every electricity bill. This is not a government subsidy, which would be open for scrutiny. We are now paying £1 billion a year.

? Electricity Companies are compelled to buy this expensive electricity using Renewable Obligation Certificates (ROCs), and put an extra charge on every one of your electricity bills. The cost of onshore wind to the consumer is some £200/MWhr taking into account the ROC subsidy, back up generation and additional transmission costs. This is over four times the cost of energy from conventional or nuclear sources. The cost of off-shore wind is even higher at over £250/MWhr (March 2011 Sir Donald Miller, former Chairman Scottish Power). For industry the cost is incrementally higher making electricity in the UK a very expensive and possibly unaffordable overhead. This may lead to relocation of industry abroad where energy costs are less.

? Subsidies for on-shore wind are higher in the UK than for virtually any other European country with a large wind investment. (EU Report into European Energy Market 2010).

? Even taking into account the minimal 10% reduction in subsidies currently being considered it is likely that by 2020 the cost of ROCs will be £15 billion ? 1% of GDP. The UK is already facing unprecedented levels of fuel poverty and, although not solely attributable to wind power generation, this will inexorably increase with subsidies, the cost of large infrastructure projects from remote locations, the cost of expensive 90% back-up; research and development of storage projects essential for use of wind power such as development of a smart grid.

  1. Employment, business and property
There is no evidence that windfarms bring significant local employment, but they can impact adversely on traditional industry and tourism and on property values, and thus the level of available investment in local businesses.

? Turbine manufacturers use their own trained staff for construction, off-site monitoring and maintenance. The majority of wind farm developers in Britain are non-UK so "for an average £50m wind farm, approximately £35m will go abroad. The employment they bring to a local community is limited. During construction there may be several jobs, but once completed a large wind farm can be run by two or three staff with technicians called in for maintenance, they are certainly not the answer to stimulating the jobs economy." (Mary Scanlon, Scottish Conservative MSP for the Highlands and Islands).

? Site preparation is specialist and few contractors have the equipment available e.g. Cefn Croes windfarm was said to use local labour; in fact Jones and Co, the contractors building roads and turbine bases were from Rhuthin, some two hours away.

? In the case of Fullabrook Down the developers, Devon Windpower, were bought out by the Electricity Supply Board, Ireland's largest utility company. During the construction process nearly all of the ground-works were carried out by an Irish labour force, but Vestas required its own trained Danish workers to erect and commission the turbines. In fact Vestas recently confirmed that they had not employed a single UK resident over the previous 24 months during the installation of their turbines throughout England, Scotland or Wales. They also confirmed that they did not foresee a change in their employment policy over the next three fiscal periods. Other manufacturers responded similarly and confirmed no local labour had been employed during the construction phase as all used their own certified engineers. (Written communication).

? A major renewables study commissioned by the European Commission (Employ- RES research project for European Commission DG Energy and Transport 2009) drew a number of interesting conclusions:

  • The renewables sector has the potential to create many jobs, predominantly in the solar, hydro and biofuels areas;
  • Wind energy is only an important contributor to the labour economy where the country manufactures the turbines;
  • The countries that could benefit the most from the growth of renewables are Eastern European (biomass production);
  • Some countries (UK and Spain are cited as examples) will experience a net loss of jobs.

There is evidence that wind power does not stimulate the economy across Europe:

? "Wind power costs Spain ?1.1 million per job in subsidy and setting minimum prices for renewably generated electricity far above market prices, wastes capital that could be allocated to other sectors. This has resulted in 2.2 jobs being destroyed for every 'green job' created." (Gabriel Calzada Álvarez, et al (2009) Study of the effects on employment of public aid to renewable energy sources. Universidad Rey Juan Carlos)

? Evidence gathered shows that local enterprises are often developed by releasing collateral in the family home by re-mortgaging. The reduction in value of homes where windfarms and associated infrastructure are proposed is impacting upon the money available to develop small local businesses.

? Tourism enterprises, especially but not exclusively where the individual caravans and chalets are owned, have suffered considerably when windfarms and associated infrastructure affect them. For example, there has been a 40% drop in lettings and a collapse in caravan sales at Nab's Wood site in North Yorkshire after construction of a wind turbine site in the vicinity two years ago.

? A survey carried out by the Welsh Tourist Board indicated that the commonest reasons for visiting the country were the scenery, wild landscapes and an unspoilt environment whilst for 71% of respondents the things which most spoilt landscape views were pylons, transmission lines or wind turbines. Remarkably similar results were found from research carried out for a Visit Scotland and here over a quarter of respondents said they would actively avoid areas with windfarms and a further 25% preferred areas without windfarms.

OP posts:
2old2beamum · 17/04/2012 10:45

I find wind farms elegant and graceful like ballerinas Confused

Kladdkaka · 17/04/2012 10:47

Not sure where you are getting your info on wind farms from. Lavenderbongo - wife of renewable energy expert.

Plagiarised directly from the National Opposition to Windfarms Charter.

FannyFifer · 17/04/2012 10:48

Surely the more renewable energy like wind farms we have the better, will also then make the gas and coal that we do have last longer as not the only way to get energy.

amicissimma · 17/04/2012 10:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ohanotherone · 17/04/2012 10:48

I live in wales, the wind doesn't blow as much or consistently here!

Interesting about solar panels being toxic. Can you link to your hubby's research??? Thanks. The type of metal needed in the turbines is produced in China and is currently poisioning their lakes aswell. Is any form of energy green then???

The main thing for me is that after all the destruction of the environment, including disruption of water courses which supply large cities such as Liverpool and Birmingham, there will be pretty much no gain in terms of cutting carbon emissions.

We should all conserve energy more aswell and have a sensible mix. Some windturbines are fine but putting a huge store on thousands of wind farms instead of other types of renewables is lunacy when they don't actually work.

OP posts:
FannyFifer · 17/04/2012 10:50

We could though in theory just use PALFHK, orange energy is much better than green and it will never ever ever run out. Wink

ohanotherone · 17/04/2012 10:53

Kladakaka - are you one of these people the energy companies are paying to peddle myths so they can make profits????

OP posts:
frostyfingers · 17/04/2012 10:53

I'm undecided about wind farms, but have spent some time looking into the pros and cons as one was proposed for near where I am.

A couple of things stood out that put me off - they too are pretty toxic in the making, they go on concrete pads which is one of the most unenvironmentally friendly building materials there is. In order to construct the one local to me there is a proposal to build a whole new access track up some ancient sheep droving roads, across a listed building's yard and straight up an as yet untouched mountainside. The wind farm has only a limited lifespan of 25 years and after that they will just be left there, along with the track and all the other stuff that goes with them.

The amount of energy they are expected to generate does not appear to me to outweigh the damage to the landscape (and I'm not talking about looks here).

Even the ones we stick out at sea must surely be doing damage to the seabed?

I'm still undecided though as the alternatives are pretty grim too. So I'll just wimp out and stay on my fence!

hardboiledpossum · 17/04/2012 10:57

I think they are currently developing ways to store wind energy from what I have read in the new scientist and other such places. I think that they are great.

AMumInScotland · 17/04/2012 11:00

- Useful article on how electricity can, in fact, be stored

ohanotherone · 17/04/2012 11:01

But it is bizarre to cover the country with a power generating source that as yet cannot be stored. After all my 6 year old wants to go to school in an x-wing starfighter, probably the technology is nearly there but it isn't realistic, is it?????

OP posts:
AMumInScotland · 17/04/2012 11:02

and here's one in Wales, which is in operation currently

ohanotherone · 17/04/2012 11:05

A link to a wiki site about hydroelectric does not tranlate to them being able to store electricity from wind power. At present there is no practical way of storing wind energy which is why energy companies get paid to turn off the turbines when it gets too windy.

OP posts:
Metabilis3 · 17/04/2012 11:06

I love wind farms.

OP I wouldn't accuse anyone else of peddling myths since you started this thread and seem to have plenty of peddling going on yourself. :)

TeWihara · 17/04/2012 11:07

I was going to say there's a definately a hydro plant which stores energy in wales, I went there on a school trip 10+ years ago!

You can't 'store' energy at traditional power stations either, storage has been considered and worked on for a very long time.

ohanotherone · 17/04/2012 11:07

I've been to Dinorwig, it's amazing and has been for many years. Where do you propose to site these huge hydroelectric plants?????

OP posts:
ohanotherone · 17/04/2012 11:10

I used to love windfarms until I found out about the ecological and environmental impact!

OP posts:
AMumInScotland · 17/04/2012 11:14

Electricity from the grid can be used to pump water uphill. What's not to get? The electricity can come from wind power, or from fossil fuel or nuclear. Any kind of electricity. It's a recognised method of converting energy from sources which are variable (eg wind) or from power stations which are best run at top capacity whatever the demand (eg fossil fuels, nuclear) into a form which is far more responsive and easy to vary to meet changes in demand.

Cremeeggsandkitkatsoldiers · 17/04/2012 11:15

one "unspoilt" area which has planned wind farms near me has LOADS of man made structures along the sky line, they're just a bit old, so okay where wind farms are not apparently! but whats the difference really?

AMumInScotland · 17/04/2012 11:16

Oh and here is a plan in Germany to use an entire abandoned coalmine as a reservoir for a similar scheme.

Jins · 17/04/2012 11:16

We all have been led to think that wind farms are green as they cut carbon emissions and we won't need nuclear, gas or coal.

No we haven't.

At present there is no practical way of storing wind energy

But I'm sure there will be soon enough and in the meantime the turbines are without question producing power for the grid which is being used.

Frankly the landscape issue is a complete pain in the arse. Just because a turbine can be seen doesn't automatically mean it has a negative impact. Some of the most fascinating parts of the historic landscape are there because of man's intervention. Disused quarries, dramatic bridges, stunning buildings etc.

I don't want to live in a sterile environment. I want low cost power produced in a sustainable manner and if that means that the countryside is covered in turbines while they establish the best method then so be it.

TeWihara · 17/04/2012 11:18

But your entire post is such bad logic.

Why are you getting your pants over storage for example? It has ALWAYS been a problem. A traditional power station takes 3 days to turn off if it's not needed, so we have NEVER been able to control supply as well as we might want. Wind farms are much quicker to turn off/on, so that's a huge advantage just there, and storage is possible in plenty of places.

Equally you seem unnecessaily concerned about the environmental impact given that traditional power stations aren't environmentally friendly at all.

It's foolish to worry about tourism, NZ is considered one of the top tourist destinations in the entire world and relies on it for a big chunk of it's imcome. It hasn't had a sudden drop in tourist numbers due to windfarms.

Stop hiding behind bollocks and admit you just don't like them.

AMumInScotland · 17/04/2012 11:18

and here's a plan to use compressed air as the storage medium

I think what I'm trying to point out is that you really don't know much about what you're talking about, for someone who clearly intended to come on here to "educate" the rest of us about an issue.

MrsHoarder · 17/04/2012 11:25

I quite like windfarms, find them rather elegent. And you are kidding yourself if you think any (bare a few very isolated spots) of the UK is not industrialised: if its not mature native woodland then it is not the natural state of the countryside (note that to revert to this now would likely cause more ecological problems though). Look at Cumbria for example: its stuffed with old tramways up to mines and quarries, just most of them are no longer profitable so have shut.

That said, windfarms are not going to be feasible as being a way we can generate even a majority of our power: we need to look at tidal stream (because the tides don't stop for days on end) and nuclear to get away from fossil fuels. Nuclear may be unpopular, but we could store decades worth of fuel for the whole UK now, and it is reliable. The alternative is to return to the pre-modern era when we didn't have plentiful electricity, which is far worse.

amicissimma · 17/04/2012 11:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.