train penalty fares - leaving ds stranded - please bear with me!

[bruffin]

First of all DS is 16 and has a 16-25 railcard- which is relevant later.

He was going to cinema with his gf. He bought tickets to get to town where gf lives and then they walk across town to another station which is on a different line to get to cinema.He bought another return ticket there.

They get the train and when he got to the other end he couldn't find the outward part of the ticket. He showed the return part of the ticket (ticket states 2 part return) to the inspector, to show that he had bought a ticket, but they said to him that wasn't proof and he would be fined £20. He was basically accused of passing the outward ticket onto someone else, even though gf travelling with him had her both parts of her return ticket.

They issued him with a penatly notice and made him pay for another single ticket £6.20 which is deducted from the £20 and he is supposed to pay the remainder of £13.80.

However this is the bit I object to

They then kept his return ticket! So he no longer is able to return without buying yet another ticket. He had no more money left, he has a cineworld card so doesn't have to pay for the cinema. Also they have charged him the full rate for a single ticket of £6.20, when a ticket bought with a 16-25 card is £4.10 for a single and £4.20 for a return.

Also they did not ask his age and did not tick the box on the penalty notice that he was under 18, nor fill in parents' details.

I have no objections to issuing a fine, he was careless losing the ticket. I suspect he put it through the ticket gate on the way out and forgot to pick it up again.
But I don't understand why they took his return ticket from him basically leaving him stranded and also not issuing him with a new return ticket.

I spoke to the inspector at my station this morning and this is standard practice, because it is illegal to travel without both parts of the ticket, but he did say that as it is the first penalty we would probably win any appeal.

I would be so angry at leaving a child stranded. Why did they need to take his return ticket away.

Complain, complain, complain. Thas is so not on

It seems unreasonable of them not to issue a return as I expect it would have been the same cost as a single.

The card is irrelevant, they are always very clear that if you don't have a valid ticket you have to pay full fare.

I thought you didn't get the outward part of the ticket back on exit from most destinations. Ridiculous jobsworthy pettiness.

And while we're about train outrage, it now costs nearly £200 of your English pounds for a day return from Shropshire to London.

A full fare return is £6.30 so only 10p more than a single fare!

It is because of all the crap and fare dodgers that there is a zero tolerance policy everyone is treated the same and all can appeal, As your DS is 16 once the station is manned they can leave him there if not manned they need to call the police and put him into their care as a fare dodger if he is underage or incapable of caring for himself
I would in your position appeal he will have been given a contact etc to do that and he should win. it is crap but hopefully he will have learned a lesson and get the money back.

I wouldn't hold your breath about winning the appeal

My DS1's friend (14yrs old) travelled without his Oyster card on a bus because he lost his wallet.

Even though his Mum produced a reference number from the Police, the appeal was turned down.

Thanks

I have written a letter of appeal stating that

a) the form was not filled in correctly ie no indication he was under 18 etc
b) that there was evidence he has bought a ticket ie he had the return ticket and that there were electronic gates at both stations, so he could have not got onto the train without having a ticket in the first place.
c) generally having a moan about the inspector taking the return part of the ticket from him.

Ridiculous - everything else aside, if you have to travel with both portions of the ticket, surely they have the technology to put all relevant travel information onto one ticket, instead of issuing two!

Good point, why do we get two tickets if you have to have your outward ticket on your return? I often just bin it when I arrive so I don't show the wrong ticket on my return. Know better now thanks to MN

I have since found out that it is just the outward journey you need to be able to show both parts of the ticket for some reason. Agree Scholes a travel card comes in one part and that can be used over and over again through the barriers.
It still doesn't really make sense

Went up to London with my DS a few weeks ago, and the clerk tried to issue us with one ticket for the two of us, because we were travelling together.
Was it any cheaper? No.
How would it work, using one day travelcard for both of us and using automatic barriers in the rush hour?
What if we split up and came home separately?
Oh.

I would fuss about them not completing the form correctly if they are going to be so pedantic as to leave a minor stranded. Good thing he had enough money to get home. I had no idea that you needed to keep both bits of a ticket until the entire trip had been completed, why issue two tickets and a receipt then?

Once, I was travelling on a long international train journey, whose last leg was London - Newcastle. My wallet was stolen in Paris just before getting onto the Eurostar.

My ticket had been booked and prepaid over the internet by credit card because at the time you coudln't have tickets sent to an international address.

I therefore turned up at King's Cross without my credit card but with a) photo ID (my passport) and b) the reference pf the booking. They refused to release my ticket on the grounds presumably that I might have not only stolen the credit card details but also forged the passport in the corresponding name and somehow stopped the person whose credit card it was from noticing the fraud in the 2 months between paying for the ticket and trying to travel.

They said a new ticket is 100 pounds. Did I mention that my wallet had been stolen and I had no means of payment? And also no means of paying for a hotel ? If I hadn't had good friends in London, who ponied up, I would have been in a very difficult situation.

The comopany was National Express. I was fully intending boycotting them a great personal inconvei=nience, but they withdrew from the line with their tails between their legs a few months later.

It depends so much on the individual ticket inspector - my DS has been thrown off a train before because he forgot his travel card even tho he had a ticket and could prove he had a travel card (via a receipt on his laptop) but then my DD has been allowed to carry on in the same position as your DS-ie cant find on half of the ticket.

The really grotty bit of this is that if you're just 16 there's no guarantee you have any spare money to then actually get home with a new ticket. I'd complain on that aspect.

Just an update

After several letters to the Penalty Fares people, Travelwatch and First Capital Connect. I haven't really got a proper reply other than the ticket may be retained to stop further fraud being committed. However they did accept that DS was not trying to defraud them and they have issued a voucher for the cost of a return journey.

What I find wrong is that everywhere else in law is that you are presumed innocent until they can prove you guilty, on the railways it seems you are guilty whatever evidence you have of your innocence.
I didn't get anywhere with the appeal against the penalty fare though.