The grand national is cruel to horses

[McHappyPants2012]

Alot of the horses will be injured and whipped into going faster, it's also a long race course.

I can't believe people would bet on this event

Show me where in that article it says how may ex-racehorses a year are destroyed?

the figures from the Guardian are here:

Racing in numbers

· Approximately 5,000 thoroughbred foals are bred every year for racing.

· Between 4,000 and 5,000 horses retire from racing every year.

· There are estimated to be more than one million horses in the UK, with 20,000 in horseracing.

· Between 6,000 and 10,000 horses are slaughtered every year in Britain for horsemeat.

· In 2004 the UK exported 1,576 tonnes of horsemeat, mainly to France.

· Of 1,022 thoroughbred foals tracked from birth, only 347 were ever entered for a race.

· British bookmakers now generate a combined annual profit of £1bn from horse racing.

· The English Derby offers a first-place cheque of £740,000.

· The owner of a leading stallion can charge $500,000 (£265,000) for a single mating. That stallion might cover 200 mares in one year.

· The racing industry gives £250,000 a year to its official charity, which retrains 90 racehorses a year for other activities.

· It costs upwards of £4,000 a year to look after a retired racehorse.

Related website

www.midlandracehorsecarecentre.org.uk
www.animalaid.org.uk
www.thehra

how are the figures not in that article? they are here for all to see.

look - i am simply telling you that i have first hand experience that ex race horses do go for meat because that is exactly what my colleague did with his.

the article plainly says they posed undercover to find out that this practice does go on and does dispose of ex race horses.

it does happen. accept its just part of racing if you are pro racing.

Right.

Show me where in those figures it states how many ex-races horses are sold for meat.

It doesn't does it.

The idea that the horse knew he was going to die is just silly. I've never suggested that. my only feeling was that perhaps he was too nervous, too agitated, couldn't stay still and wanted to run off....in a sense, just mischievous perhaps (as I think some would describe it - I wouldn't accredit a horse with human behaviour).

Perhaps he wasn't focused enough to run. He stumbled and fell and 'at some point' broke a leg...we don't know if it was at Bechers or later. Do we?

A proportion of unsuccessful race horses are sold for meat, it's true. I don't know the exact figures. Again, whether you ( abstract you again) think this is "cruel" depends on whether you think death is the worst fate than can befall an animal ( and unless you're a vegan you're on fairly thin ice here...). IMO, if the abattoir is regulated and despatch is humane and respectful, and every journey to the abattoir takes into account the animals' needs for water and rest, I have no problem with that. I don't believe eating animals is fundamentally wrong, so long as their care and welfare while alive is acceptable and their end is quick and humane.

Equally a lot of race horses will never be sold for meat, either because their owners make alternative arrangements for their horses (retirement, retraining; it might suit some people to think of all racehorse owners and trainers as evil mercenaries but thankfully that's far from the case) or because they've received medication which places then outside the human food chain.

It amazes me how these type of discussions always go off topic , using other examples of cruelty that the main post doesn't mention to prove the poster wrong in their view .'oh , you didn't mention this , or this , and do you do this , therefore you are a hypocrite '. I thought the topic under discussion was the Grand National , and not horse ownership in general .

If you bring it back to the plan facts , horses die while running the race . We know that there will probably be deaths of horses during the race , yet it still goes a ahead . Knowing there will be suffering yet ignoring it is cruel . You don't need to bring in all the other details such as the love owners have for the horses , the jobs it creates , the breeding , and all the other wrongs in the world to try and disprove the obvious .

People fall into two categories when it comes to the Grand National , those who care about welfare, and those who care about money . Not judging those who prefer betting and watching the race , I'm just glad I'm not like that .

how, when this practice is not legal do you expect the exact figures to be quoted?

i know that my colleague got rid of his horse this way. what is it that you dont believe?

i am going to bed now so while i would love to stay and argue the toss ive just done a 10 hour night shift and really cant be arsed.

ifyou are pro racing then you should simply accept that the expense of keeping a horse that isnt making any money is justifiable for some people and this is a way of getting rid of the animal.

the conversation had by my colleague was exactly that rationale. i know first hand that it happens.
do you know first hand that it doesnt?

Exactly fireandashes.

Its a low number as well as if an animal can be sold for a few grand to be a riding animal it will be. Why sell it for a couple of £100 when you can do that instead?. The ones sold for meat will be either injured, ill or old and not able to be retrained and rehomed. They are killed humanely - unless you are a vegetarian it is hypocritical to say this is wrong.

BTW - you know the lovely pretty wild ponies on Exmoor? They are killed for meat routinely.

Racehorses are not killed for meat routinely. If they are old, ill or injured and cannot be resold for a different purpose, they will be (in some cases) humanely killed. If they are not "good at racing", again they will ususally be resold for a different purpose. They are far more valuable in this way than bweing sent to the abbatoir. This is the same for many horses - it is not specific to racing. I am not sure what people would prefer.

Not legal? It is perfectly legal!

Sorry Articrain. I care about the welfare of the horses and not a jot about the money. But I don't want to see the national banned.

So, no, people do not fall into one of two categories

sorry - my post was to catgirl my sister in law owns an ex race horse. they are not novice rides.

hers is called Nigel.

the racing industry should at least be honest about the horses - its an industry. a business. animal welfare isnt very far up the list imo.

sold as dog meat is an inflaming term like torn to pieces by a pack of dogs which is used by anti-foxhunting groups. Calves are sold as meat , lambs as mild flavoured lamb meat not doubt the less appetising parts go as dog/cat meat, and foxes which aren't torn to pieces by a pack of dogs must die of age/ starvation / injury /or possibly finished off by their own kind, not necessarily quickly by a pack of them.

Should dead horses be dumped in rubbish tips?

Those claiming to be animal lovers ignore their own cruelty - keeping pets in cramped flats without adequate exercise, de incisor-teething dangerous dogs etc and get their knickers in a twist about horse racing etc.

A bit more honesty about cruelty is needed. Alot of what goes on is toff bashing disguised as animal caring.

I watched a crow pecking out the eyes of an injured pigeon the other day, ugh. Didn't have the courage to try to catch it and wring its neck. Nature is cruel.

In theory to avoid cruelty altogether we need to do away with animal keeping by humans and allow the animals to roam free - but then it is in the wild that is where most of the cruellest things happen (as shown by wildlife programmes nowadays - killer whales taking lumps out of baby whales, crows /injured pigeons.

I want more reason, sense and less extremism in these debates.

Vicar - of course a small proportion of ex-racehorses end up going for meat. But they are killed humanely and what would you like to see done with the carcass

All I am saying is that where a horse can be sold for a lot more money into a different career it makes a lot more sense to do that than sell it for a couple of hundred quid to the knackers yard.

People don't routinely sell horses for meant "just because they can't race". I am sure it happens but it will be pretty rare that someone decides not to sell an animal for as much as they can get - and that is rarely the knackers yard unless the animal is ill, injured or old.

Again - where an animal needs to be destroyed, what would you like done with the carcass.

And it is not illegal - why do you think it is?

ah my sleep deprived brain read 'not legal' instead of 'not illegal', however i would dare suggest that this is a part of the whole racing industry they would probably prefer to keep quiet.

now to bed, really must sleep.

And surely the fact your Sis owns an ex-racehorse (Nigel - nice name) shows you that there is a market for them outside of the abbatoir?

can i just say my colleagues horse was young, not injured, but they wanted rid and it was an easy way of getting rid of it.

i think its a wholly unsavoury industry. i think dog racing is much the same. i dont agree with it, i dont like it, and nothing i read about the practices of disposing of animals that dont make money makes me think any more highly of it.

you said a few posts ago that you dont believe this practice even happens catgirl and now your saying a small proportion do??? why dont you do some research then make up your mind.

at least i have remained consistent, if sleep addled.
now i could quite possibly stay and argue all day because i dont agree with you, and i dont agree with racing. horse or dog. but i really do need some sleep!

Catgirl , not sure how you can care about the welfare yet support something where they are likely to be damaged , unless you believe there should be major changes to the race to make it safer .

I dont know if this has already been said but Neptune Collanges is fine. He arrived back home last night to a hero's welcome and is being paraded in the village of his trainer later today. They would not be doing this if he was hurt in any way.

His owner, John Hales, had said that the National would be his last race regardless of what happened during the race. So dont think that he is being retired because he hurt himself. He hasnt. He will have a lovely summer out in the field before moving on to doing something else of the rest of his life.

I love horses and also love racing. However I am still very upset for what happened yesterday - as are all of those people involved in the sport. FWIW I think that the amount of runners in the race needs to be reduced from 40 to 25. There will always be freak accidents - in a flat race (no jumps) in Dubai 3 horses had to be put down due to breaking down in the same race when there were no casualties the rest of the day - but According to Pete was brought down by another horse. Reducing the size of the fences wont help in my opinion but reducing the amount running in the race should help.

As I have said a lot in this thread, I believe the GN field should be halved to 20 runners.

However, you will never remove the risk from racing - there will always be a risk. You will never remove the risk from any equestrian sport.

Unless you think all equestrian sports should be banned (and by extension horse ownership full stop) you have to accept this risks exist.

I accept the risks exists and wish to minimise them where possible. That isn't a contradictory position.

I love my horses but accept everytime we ride, compete or even when I turn them out into the field, there is a risk.

Vicar - I have never said I didn't believe it happened. I know it happens. I just didn't believe your friend as his claim "he sold it to Belgium for meat" doesn't ring true to me. He (or the sydicate) would have sold the horse to an abbatoir, not "to Belgium" for a start. Then I have to question why they would sell a young, healthy, uninjured horse for a fraction of its worth? That doesn't make any sense at all does it?

And yes - I need to do some research into the racing industry as I know nothing about it.

ArcticRain it's perfectly possible to support racing and actively strive for the highest possible welfare standards! Just because someone is pragmatic that in a high-impact sport involving another sentient species there WILL be fatalities doesn't mean we don't mourn those deaths or look for ways to minimise the risk. But ( at the risk of sounding like a stuck record) there will always be that risk. The ONLY way to guarantee no horse deaths is to have no horses. FACT. I've weighed up that option and found it unacceptable because I genuinely believe, based on years of experience, research and empirical evidence that in the scheme of things, racing is NOT cruel. There are far, far worse fates for a horse, or any animal, than a quick humane death whether that be on the track or at an abbatoir.

There ARE some unsavoury characters and practices within racing and I don't turn a blind eye or deny them, I actively work to improve matters - because I care about animal welfare, and because I care about the sport I love. I support charities who work to rehome and retrain racehorses, I try to educate people about the reality rather than the misconceptions and I have passed evidence to the BHA about a trainer whose methods were unacceptable (he was subsequently banned).

Haven't read the whole thread, sorry, because imo it's a no brainer. Grand National involves beating horses = causes them pain, and involves them jumping at high speed over high fences, all in the name of 'sport' and making people money. Sorry, can't see any justification for it whatsoever., In this day and age, have people not got anything better to do?

an average racehorse just out of training wouldnt be worth thousands. Some go for slaughter better that than being sold into hands of people who don't know what they are doing. That alone creates a welfare issue