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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The grand national is cruel to horses

999 replies

McHappyPants2012 · 12/04/2012 15:20

Alot of the horses will be injured and whipped into going faster, it's also a long race course.

I can't believe people would bet on this event

OP posts:
Fireandashes · 15/04/2012 00:37

And seeker, likewise.

Just because you don't want to hear something, doesnt mean it's not true.

threestepsforward · 15/04/2012 00:44

Firedashes, it's worse because a horse hasn't made a decision that it WANTS to put itself in that position of danger, as a human boxer etc. would.

It's OUR decision to put the horse in danger. Yet another example of us humans feeling we have the right to impose our wants and views on every other species...

Rhinosaurus · 15/04/2012 01:34

So let's hear it from previous poster ponyofdoom who said, and I quote: "I have nothing against animals being used for entertainment".

Are you feeling entertained now ponyofdoom?

Do please share, so the rest of us in-horsey people can understand the entertainment of killing animals?

Fireandashes · 15/04/2012 01:48

Thanks for taking the time to respond threestepsforeward. I guess the difference between our views is that, as stated earlier, I don't consider a quick painless death in the midst of doing a job that it has been bred and trained for as being the worst thing that can happen to a horse. I try to think of racing - all interactions with animals, in fact - from the horse's perception not the human's.

I think there is a fundamental question of whether any human interaction with or to a horse is justified, given that as soon as humans get involved, any concept of "natural" goes out of the window, and every interaction introduces the risk of horses being put in "danger", as you put it. I'm interested to know where people draw the line. If a single horse death is unacceptable, then the only logical solution is to ban anyone from keeping a horse. That might sound extreme but it is the only way the risk of a horse dying because of a human's actions can be completely removed. If anyone agrees with this, then while I personally don't I can at least respect the logic of their thought process. If anyone doesn't, then what is acceptable in your view? Given that every single horse that dies of anything other than "old age" has done so because of the direct or indirect consequences of being used for human "enjoyment" of one form or another?

I know three people who have lost their leisure horses in the field this year. Two were kicked by other horses in the fields and sustained broken legs; the third was struck by lightning. Ultimately, logically, all those horses died because their owners put them in that position. They put them in those particular fields with those other particular horses or in those particular weather conditions. Would you (anyone) ban people from keeping horses to hack around the block now and again? You might say I'm being ridiculous, it's completely different circumstances, they were accidents, etc etc. Fact is, three horses are still dead at a young age because of human interference. Is that more or less unacceptable than today's deaths?

Racing works continually to mitigate the risks for all involved, horses and jockeys. (I actually think some of the modifications to the GN course have been counter-productive, but that's my opinion.) The intention at the start of every race is for the horses to come back safe and sound. The risk is that some may not. So long as the authorities continue to work to minimise the risks, I will continue to support racing. But these are living creatures with all the frailties and fallibilities that entails. The risk will NEVER be entirely removed. When a horse can die in its paddock from taking a wrong step (which happens), when it can die in its stable from lying down the wrong way (which happens), when it can have an undetected heart condition or tendon weakness that could not be predicted (which happens), even if every other risk were removed and horses were trotting round on tracks of candy floss ridden by six-year-old girls - there would still be deaths.

More horses are killed through kindness - laminitis or the effects of obesity from over-feeding, colic from being fed unsuitable food or from the stress of being kept in a stable because the owner thought they'd be "too cold" outside, or worst of all dying a slow undignified painful death because the owner "loves it too much to lose it" - than ever die on the racetrack. At the risk of being guilty of anthropomorphising myself for a moment: I honestly believe if a horse could choose between the quick painless death at the racecourse with immediate veterinary attention and the adrenaline pumping or one of the scenarios above (and that's not even going through the options where there is actual cruelty or neglect involved) then it would choose the former.

Rhinosaurus · 15/04/2012 01:56

Fireandashes very good post, however doesn't change the fact that the national is mostly about money, and not welfare of horses. Why should the horses' deaths be considered acceptable? Would it be considered acceptable if two jockeys a year died? Of course it fucking wouldn't, and neither should it be. Sport should not equal death.

MelinaM · 15/04/2012 01:58

An interesting article regarding race horses: here

MelinaM · 15/04/2012 01:59

An interesting article regarding race horses: here

MelinaM · 15/04/2012 01:59

Feck... www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport

MelinaM · 15/04/2012 01:59

...apologies for the useless links Grin

MelinaM · 15/04/2012 02:01

A more recent article: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/06/racehorse-slaughter-animal-welfare

HalfPastWine · 15/04/2012 02:05

Rhino good point made there.

If a jockey had died today there would have been all kinds of investigations made into the safety of the course. Is this what it's going to take before changes are made?

Fireandashes · 15/04/2012 02:20

Eight riders dying in five years didn't stop three day eventing taking place. Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger dying in the same F1 season didn't bring an end to F1.

Rhino I don't dispute racing revolves around money. But a financial investment and an emotional investment are not mutually exclusive. Most owners - the ones who agree to their horses taking part in events like the National - will never make a profit from their racing activities.

In fact, the financial element actually gives strength to the welfare point. The more good horses there are running in races, the more attractive the sport is to punters and to prospective owners. So it stands to reason that the sport's authorities are going to do their best to protect their best asset - the horses - rather than actively try to kill them off, doesn't it?

Flightty · 15/04/2012 07:53

'So it stands to reason that the sport's authorities are going to do their best to protect their best asset - the horses - rather than actively try to kill them off, doesn't it?'

But it's not WORKING. Is it? It's clearly not working. Synchronised was one of the best horses out there. He died. SOMETHING is going very, very wrong if that can happen despite all you say, Fireandashes.

catgirl1976 · 15/04/2012 07:56

There will be about 200 horses racing in England and Ireland today (at the 3 main racing events - thats not counting point to point etc). Today is not a very busy day for racing tbh.

This is a huge sport with so much more to it than the national. It is not cruel. Of course some cruelty exists - as in anything there are some excellent people and some terrible people. Where there is cruelty it should be removed, but it is the exception not the standard.

I think there is a lack of clarity of what some people want on this thread. All racing banned? All equestian sports banned? These views show a lack of understanding of both the sports involved and the horses themselves IMO.

We all want better welfare and safety for horses - no one would argue against that. A lot of people (myself included) would like a much smaller field in the national for example. But knee jerk cries to ban racing / equestrian sports miss the point and are (I believe) unhelpful.

Flightty · 15/04/2012 08:09

The reason F1 isn't banned is that the drivers enter into it fully aware of the risks and choose to drive even if it carries a massive risk to themselves.

I can't comment on eventing. I know nothing about it. If it presents a serious risk to horses then yes, it's probably wrong, or needs to be sorted so that it's safe.

We know the national is dangerous. That's the whole point, it's survival of the fittest/luckiest all the way. I actually see NO reason not to compare it to bullfighting.

Yes it is a thrilling race. Of course it is. Anything involving a situation in which it's pretty much life or death is going to be thrilling on some level. That's why people like watching action movies.

Horses are wonderful, racing is probably wonderful if no horse gets overworked or injured, or killed. BUT THEY DO.

The betting makes me sick. The rich getting ever richer makes me sick. But that isn't the crux of it.

Was it obvious to everyone else that after about half the field was out, or down (or dead), there were barely any casualties? There was enough space by then. I really do think this is part of the answer, if it's going to be allowed to continue. I think it's the best chance of reducing/ruling out casualties that they have got.

I would love to see it discontinued in its current format. I do wonder if the gambling side was eliminated - or if you could gamble on it but only, say, for pennies, or even (perish the thought) for charity - if that would change the race.

Mutt · 15/04/2012 08:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

catgirl1976 · 15/04/2012 08:32

I totally agree the field should be reduced but I disagree that doing so would significantly reduce the interest in it. I think people would still bet on it and it would remain a national institution, just a better, safer one.

Of course racing is run by the rich. As are most sports at top level. Look at football. It is enjoyed by every class though - it's not a "posh" (as a quick look at some of the outfits worn by punters yesterday would tell you). It's far cheaper to go to the races than a premiership football match.

catgirl1976 · 15/04/2012 08:32

not a posh sport I mean

Flightty · 15/04/2012 08:39

Catgirl, those who have the power in racing and in football are invariably the extremely wealthy. It's not about the ordinary punters. It's all about the people at the top.

I don't think anyone who isn't a CEO of something or other could afford to own or train a racehorse.

ThatVikRinA22 · 15/04/2012 08:48

ive just got in and watched the news, i also said to DH its going to take a jockey to die before this vile race gets stopped or modified.

horrendous. i dont watch it and i dont bet on it. this bloody race marred my wedding day 21 years ago cos all my sodding guests buggered of to place their bets and missed the photographer.

so i have another reason to hate it.

catgirl1976 · 15/04/2012 08:56

Yes I know flightty - that's why I said Of course racing is run by the rich. As are most sports at top level. Look at football.

But you were saying that it was a "tory" sport which simply isnt true.

Yes most racehorse owners are rich. So are most football club owners. It doesn't mean football is a "tory" sport. It is (like racing) enjoyed across all classes.

Flightty · 15/04/2012 09:00

Oh I watched it. It is fascinating. I'm trying very hard to see both sides of it.

My enjoyment stops somewhere between the insistence on racing an animal that's clearly not concentrating, with an injured jockey, and the horses falling on their necks, and the rich, upper class people crying and hugging each other because their bank balance just rose by however many million quid.

The horses themselves are fantastic. Some of the jockeys look reasonably nice, too. Some of the owners and trainers looked like good people....I think they are hugely misguided though. When you notice the sheer desperation to make that poor creature who ran off race, despite his behaviour, you get a sense that it really all is about the dosh. All of it comes down to that. Would they have let him run off? No bloody way.

He was the favourite! How could they let all those people down? All that money! Just think of it, the horror. Better to race and take the risk than to pull him out.

Flightty · 15/04/2012 09:01

I didn't say anything of the sort - must have been someone else.

catgirl1976 · 15/04/2012 09:03

God sorry - you didn't it was mutt

Have been up since 5 with DS so my brain doesn't work- apologies

Flightty · 15/04/2012 09:04

Marne:

'How many times have you seen a horse refusing to line up for a race? if a horse does not want to race it will not race and will often chuck the rider off, the horse is then pulled out of the race.'

Isn't this what happened yesterday - and yet he was still raced?