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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The grand national is cruel to horses

999 replies

McHappyPants2012 · 12/04/2012 15:20

Alot of the horses will be injured and whipped into going faster, it's also a long race course.

I can't believe people would bet on this event

OP posts:
sanguinechompa · 13/04/2012 08:10

I agree with Peelingmyselfofftheceiling and Tranquiliade

There is a (well-informed) school of thought though that says the Grand National has got more dangerous by bowing to public pressure and lowering the height of the fences.

Lower fences = faster race = increased danger.

So it's not a black and white issue.

I don't think the race is intrinsically cruel but it is risky. It's the longest race in the National Hunt calendar for a start and the field is huge and as such doesn't reflect the majority of races over jumps in the UK.

Everyone involved in racing from stable boys, to trainers, to course designers, stewards etc bend over backwards to eliminate as much risk as possible through protective gear, rigorous training, heavily enforced rules and course design.

You have to remember that the majority of these horses wouldn't exist in the first place if it wasn't for the racing industry. And the horses are doing what they are bred and trained to do; they are animals with a well honed flight instinct and love running in a herd.

And anyone who rides and works with horses regularly knows that they are quite accident prone animals anyway. Their confirmation puts them at risk : huge amount of weight on a small circumference of bone when galloping and jumping. They still succumb when not being ridden in races. A good friend of mine (a highly experienced and committed horse owner) recently lost two of her much-loved (and 100% healthy) horses within the space of eleven weeks. The first died because it was kicked by her paddock companion whilst out grazing one day and it had to be put down because the impact broke the bone around a joint. The second died through injuring its foot while out on a quiet hack which led to an untreatable infection. Horse ownership is fraught with anxiety - it really is. So many horses end up being destroyed in the normal course of things because veterinary science hasn't so far come up with a consistent and humane way of mending a broken leg. (Horses need four legs in order to stand up - so in order to allow a leg to heal, you end up having to drug and suspend them in a harness for six months - a very risky procedure - with no guarantee of success.)

And btw - fwiw - I don't think the incidence of stress-induced vices such as weaving, box walking, cribbing, and windsucking are much more prevalent in race horses than in other sections of the horse population. Many of those vices come about as much through boredom as anxiety - for example, in the child's pony that's kept in a stable - and only ridden on Saturdays. Generally, racing stables offer much more healthy, active and stimulating environments than that.

I do have concerns for horses that are trained very young but you can't really accuse the National Hunt fraternity of that. Most Grand National winners are on average about eight or ten years old. I think horses have to be seven years old to compete now too.

Also, the two yards I was involved with, worked on a rota system with horses in training being given regular training breaks on pasture and were brought back to fitness slowly.

As for the wastage, yes that happens. But I also personally know of three racing stables where several "retirees" are happily living out the rest of their lives at pasture. I don't know for sure but I reckon that must be replicated throughout the country. And believe me, much more work, dedication, effort and money goes in to looking after the average race horse than your average pig, sheep or calf that is raised for food.

And yes, like in any industry, there are the rogues and the shysters who are only out for a quick profit. Fortunately they are usually unsuccessful because it takes huge skill and commitment and consistent effort to be a successful trainer. The overwhelming majority of people I know who work in horse-racing work very long hours, seven days a week, in all weathers, for very little money, with their main focus being the welfare of their charges. Honestly, working in a yard is pretty tough - it's a labour of love - you have to love horses to do it.

CaveMum · 13/04/2012 08:18

That's a really good post sanguine. You are quiet right about trainers these days having to be highly qualified. In order to be granted a licence to train racehorses the trainer has to jump through many hoops, including

taking and passing several week long courses held at the British Racing School
have worked at a high level in a training yard for a minimum of 5 (I think) years
provide references from other trainers
provide proof that they have at least £10,000 in a bank account to ensure no immediate shortage of money
provide evidence of prospective owners willing to send horses to him/her
Pass an interview with a panel at BHA offices were they are quizzed on veterinary issues, welfare, staff management and their business plan

schoolgovernor · 13/04/2012 08:22

Sangine, you sound like a nice, genuine horse lover.
However, your post does indicate that you don't really know if some of the things you claim are true. For example, you don't think that there is a higher incidence of stress-related conditions in racehorses. You could do a bit of research, and that would indicate that this is the case. You know of some racehorses retired to pasture and, based on that, you reckon that must be replicated around the country. Of course it is, for the lucky few, but if you just do the sums on the number of prospective racehorses bred, and raced, then it's obviously not the case for the majority.
As I said above, the people who work with the racehorses do often love them very much, but as with other animals, it's possible to love them and still have a skewed view of what would really be best for their physical and mental wellbeing.

I ride nearly every day and agree that horses manage to injure themselves in all sorts of creative ways. As others have said, I don't think that bears any comparison to the way racehorses live and work. For me anyway it's about the big picture - their lives from birth to death.
I'm not feeling confrontational about this, honestly. I would just like people to go away and find out more about the industry before laying their bets. Oh, and I agree that a lot of these horses wouldn't exist without the industry and I'd be fine with that. There are far too many horses in this country as it is, if some weren't bred in the first place that wouldn't be a problem for me. It's not like we'd never see a horse in a field again.

schoolgovernor · 13/04/2012 08:25

p.s. I know a licenced racehorse trainer "down south". You wouldn't want to have a horse with him. He's steered just clear of prosecution for neglect on more than one occasion. People have even complained about him to the governing board - he's still "training" and racing. I was so amazed that he was claiming to be licenced that I even rang up and checked.

Flightty · 13/04/2012 08:35

I don't think you have to love horses. You have to love the job which is an entirely different thing.

Anyway back to this:

Abra1d Thu 12-Apr-12 22:23:25
So far as I can see a lot of horses die miserable deaths. Can't see that dropping dead of a heart attack during a race is the worst way to go. Better than being shoved into a lorry and sent on a long journey to an abattoir.

_

So do we have to choose between two awful ways to die for horses? Or are there other options? Because just because going to an abbatoir is horrific, it doesn't mean we ought to put them out of their misery by breaking their necks on a deliberately dangerous racecourse. Does it?

But then I also think that dying as a result of a hound snapping your spinal column is quicker and cleaner if you're a fox than dying a long death from hunger if you reach old age without your teeth and starve because you can't kill food.

Oh really? I didn't realise the hunting experience was as abrupt and sterile as that. I thought it involved a fair bit of sheer terror and exhaustion before you actually get killed. Though don't let me put you off...perhaps we should do this to people as well? Just to save them from becoming old and dying of natural causes.

I think were I a fox I'd take the latter any day.

Flightty · 13/04/2012 08:42

Sangine why on earth are you trying to press the point that horses are ridiculously fragile and vulnerable to injury, in the context of an argument about putting their safety at risk?

It doesn't make a great case for putting them through a dangerous obstacle course really does it?

Flightty · 13/04/2012 08:42

sanguine, sorry typo

sanguinechompa · 13/04/2012 08:55

SchoolGovernor. I am basing my opinions on personal experience - I didn't claim otherwise - and my personal experience are simply different to yours. I acknowledged that there are bad trainers out there and that there is wastage.

The point I'm making is that a lot of thought, consideration, and effort goes in to a racecourse in training while it is alive is - much more so than that of the average animal raised for meat.

As for the statistics concerning stress-related conditions -I'm happy to look in to them if you tell me where to look - but surely it is quite a difficult thing to quantify. Thoroughbreds by their nature are more highly strung than the average riding horse. That's related to their breeding rather than the conditions they are kept in.

In every yard across the land of any type, you will come across one or two horses with a bad wind-sucking or cribbing habit. A good trainer does everything in their power to nuture the mental wellbeing of his or her charges. (That's why I mentioned the resting -rota -pasture system I was familiar with) Aside from any other consideration - it is in the trainer's financial interest to do so. And anyone who knows anything about racing also knows that it is a very "mental" pursuit - for the jockey and the horse. Yes, the horses are physical athletes but if they are not mentally ready and settled then the results are disastrous. Sometimes a horse just won't "go" or has nothing to give from the start. A nine stone rider can't change it's mind or force it. In those circumstances, a horse is usually pulled up and rested.

I'm not being confrontational either - and I respect your views. But for me personally, I am very happy that these sleek, powerful, impressive animals are bred in such numbers and are amongst us in the world. It would be a sorry loss if they weren't. Like many people, I get genuine pleasure from watching them do what they have been bred for.

sanguinechompa · 13/04/2012 09:02

Flighty I am not making an argument for putting them at risk. I am saying that the life of a horse (through it's sheer confirmation) is intrinsically risky anyway.

Owners and trainers invest thousands and thousands of pounds in to their horses. They don't want them to die on the race-track. Nor did my friend want to lose her much beloved happy hackers. But you can't eliminate risk from all aspects of life. You can only take sensible precautions.

And sorry, but I beg to differ about having to love horses to do the job. The horses ARE the job (if you are doing it properly anyway). If you were in it for the money, you could get better wages down at your local factory.

sanguinechompa · 13/04/2012 09:04

Sorry - very interesting thread - but have to leave it for a while.

BBL!

sanguinechompa · 13/04/2012 09:28

One last thought before running out of door - sorry - middle-aged brain..

Wanted to say that I agree with Schoolgovernor's point about there being much mis-directed "love" for horses which is in fact ignorance. But I think you come across more of that in your average village livery stable of a weekend than in a professionally run, highly regulated racing stable. I'm not naieve, racing is an industry -where I freely acknowledge the majority of the decisions made come from a hard-nosed financial position rather than one of sentiment - but as such, the people working in it are highly trained and knowledgeable (and heavily inspected!) and have a financial incentive to give their horses the best of care. Being professional does not equal 'cruelty'.

Flightty · 13/04/2012 09:49

'But you can't eliminate risk from all aspects of life. You can only take sensible precautions.'

I am saying that the GN course is too risky, deliberately challenging and risky because people want it that way. That's what makes it exciting.

I think that's intrinsically immoral when it involves putting animals at risk. If it's motorcycles or rock climbing and people are putting themselves in extreme danger, all very well - it's free will.

Using horses for this purpose is wrong.

HalfPastWine · 13/04/2012 10:19

Flighty Well said, you took the words right out of my mouth.

But then I also think that dying as a result of a hound snapping your spinal column is quicker and cleaner if you're a fox than dying a long death from hunger if you reach old age without your teeth and starve because you can't kill food.

Oh really? I didn't realise the hunting experience was as abrupt and sterile as that. I thought it involved a fair bit of sheer terror and exhaustion before you actually get killed. Though don't let me put you off...perhaps we should do this to people as well? Just to save them from becoming old and dying of natural causes.

Abra1d · 13/04/2012 10:59

So are you going to insist that all wild animals stop hunting? How? Most nights in autumn I like in bed and I hear rabbits shrieking as foxes get them. I hear foxes shrieking because they are in pain.
How can you stop animals being . . . animals?

I was watching a documentary about wolves. They kill in the same way as hounds kill foxes: choose a weaker individual and target it. Are you going to tell them off for using terror and exhaustion?

You know a lot of alternative culling methods ain't that kind. Shooting? Well, yes, great it you're a good marksman. Lots of people aren't. Starvation through lack of food?

I have never killed an animal in my life: except for a pigeon and a rabbit who'd been run over and were in agony. But I think it's a lot more complicated than people sometimes think.

The real animal cruelty issue lies elsewhere. For instance in the forests of Indonesia where whole species are being eliminated: often in a lingering and cruel way. Orang-utans, particularly. Or in China where bears are kept in cages and their bile 'harvested'.

Flightty · 13/04/2012 11:07

Abraid I'm sorry but I can't believe you're comparing wild animals killing each other as part of nature and the food chain with humans putting horses at risk, or killing foxes for what amounts to fun.

Seriously? I don't understand how that is relevant.

Flightty · 13/04/2012 11:09

I mean to put it very simply, we're not talking about what wild animals do to each other. We're talking about humans who have morality, and free will and choice and all sorts of things.

It isn't in any respect comparable.

HalfPastWine · 13/04/2012 11:09

So are you going to insist that all wild animals stop hunting?

Err no...that's nature. Animals hunt and are hunted...by other predators. Flighty is referring to an organised hunt with hounds. This is bloodsport, not nature taking it's natural course.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 13/04/2012 11:09

Not that I am pro hunting, but I agree that the British and that MNers have a curious attitude to animal cruelty. I remember a thread in which a woman was talking about taking her children to Discovery Cove to "swim with the dolphins". Another poster begged her not to contribute to the barbaric practice of drive hunts in which the adult animals are herded into a cove in Japan and slaughtered while their young are captured to feed the growing market for captive swim with dolphin facilities, including Discovery Cove (whose customers are then lied to about the animals' wellbeing). This poster was turned upon for being a misery guts who was trying to spoil other people's children's fun.

Very strange.

Flightty · 13/04/2012 11:11

I didn't know about that, Ariel - how tragic.

I didn't see the thread. But yes you do tend to get some extremes of opinion about animal based practises. What is considered harmless and what it considered unspeakable can often sit uncomfortably alongside one another

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 13/04/2012 11:17

Well they hush it up, unsurprisingly! But there is plenty of proof out there e.g. here And it is doubly awful because they use the slaughtered adults' meat in school meals, but it is so contaminated with mercury (because the ocean is so polluted now) that ordinarily a dead predator in the ocean is considered to be toxic waste. Mercury poisoning is causing mental and physical disabilities in Japanese schoolchildren.

But people in this country still don't want to know about it, because they want their children to "swim with the dolphins". Makes me sick.

Anyway, back to the National.....

NeedToSleepZZZ · 13/04/2012 15:13

Any time an animal is used for the amusement of humans is extremely cruel. They do not have a say in the matter.

Peetle · 13/04/2012 15:44

Two horses dying in the National is about the average I think - it's more remarkable when no horses die.

Horse racing isn't too bad when there's a sensible number of horses racing but the National is just insane with dozens of horses piling over the jumps and on top of each other.

As they said in a recent Private Eye; two horses dying meant the cancellation of that Dustin Hoffman TV series but four horses dying on the first day of the Cheltenham festival didn't get a mention.

Quenelle · 13/04/2012 15:48

YANBU I believe it is cruel and never bet on it.

CaveMum · 13/04/2012 16:00

Peetle, I said further up thread "Luck" was cancelled due to falling ratings. It is the press that have claimed it was due to the 3 deaths, one of which was a freak accident.

There have been 23 fatalities in the last 31 runnings (1,240 horses ran in this time), so to say 2 on average per race is not true.

somewhereinsummertime · 13/04/2012 16:19

I used to love betting of the GN but now I think it is disgraceful.

A lot of horses that die could be saved not just by making the race safer but by extended veterinary care when injured. Of course the horses are worth nothing economically when injured so they just put them down.

The racing industry is a cynical money making machine that self regulates and although I can't bear Ricky Gervais good for him to stand up and say something! time the government set up an appropriate regulatory body.