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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to hate the term 'career woman'

38 replies

gordyslovesheep · 12/04/2012 09:46

in 2012 - have we not moved on from needing to label women who work? We don't have career men - why have career women?

It's always used with such negative conotations (sp) as well - 'Career Woman' leave it 'too late' to have kids, hate their children, dump them in child care etc etc etc

Is it not time to just have men and women - with jobs !

OP posts:
DuelingFanjo · 12/04/2012 09:50

I have a job. Just a job, 5 days a week, every week. Just like my Husband. We both use childcare.

I saw a report in the daily fail about how 'career women' find it harder to deal with their kids than non career women and it made me want to rip my eyeballs out.

callmemrs · 12/04/2012 09:51

I couldn't agree more!

Apart from anything else, it's so totally normal these days for mums and dads to be working. When I look at my teenage kids, I doubt very much they will be able to afford to spend a large chunk of their adult life not in work- even if they wanted to!

And yes, 'career woman' has such negative connotations. We are just adults who happen to be parents (ie as the majority of adults are) and we do that perfectly normal thing called work.

BusinessTrills · 12/04/2012 09:51

YANBU

Men are never described as "career men". Is that because men are expected to have a career and for women this is something unusual?

BusinessTrills · 12/04/2012 09:52

callmemrs I don't know why you think "career woman" means that you have children.

callmemrs · 12/04/2012 09:54

It doesn't business- its just the majority of adults do have children .

molly3478 · 12/04/2012 09:56

There are career men to. I would count career men as men that were very work orientated, work in a professional or business type job did a lot of travelling away from family etc. I would say more than 60/70% of men are not career men

BusinessTrills · 12/04/2012 09:59

No-one uses the phrase "career men" though, do they?

molly3478 · 12/04/2012 10:02

I hear people say career men but then where I am it is more rare to know career men.

molly3478 · 12/04/2012 10:04

Also its usually said in negative terms especially by older people I know. 'Like hes a right career man she hardly ever sees him the poor thing' Again though if its outside the norms of the place its going to be like that.

GeekCool · 12/04/2012 10:04

No because men are 'business men' i.e. they sound important. Women are 'career women' i.e. they abandon their family during the day, selfishly.

gordyslovesheep · 12/04/2012 10:05

My ex was a workaholic who never switched off (on our wedding day I had to hide his mobile) but he was never referred to as a career man - I work PT in the public sector and have been referred to (by stupid MIL) as a 'career woman' - it's just daft

OP posts:
helloclitty · 12/04/2012 10:23

I actually hate the word career full stop. Especially when used to describe someone who say works as an admin assistant. "I will be giving my career up when I have my children". It's not a career it's a job!

helloclitty · 12/04/2012 10:30

Anyway YANBU
Although, I understand how the term came about specifically for women.

It's an outdated expression which refers to a women who has a professional job (like doctor, lawyer, etc). It came around when women who worked general did clerical or factory jobs until they were married and had kids. Because of the lack of support for women in professional work like maternity pay etc these women often chose not to have children at least until later and therefore the assumption was a career woman didn't have kids.

So it's obvious why there isn't the term career men. I haven't heard it used since the 80's though, who says it now?

Mumsyblouse · 12/04/2012 10:36

Who says 'career women'? I hate to direct you to today's Daily Mail, but...

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2128400/The-career-women-handle--children.html

Mumsyblouse · 12/04/2012 10:39

And the exact tag line was 'The career women who can handle anything but their own children' when in fact the study showed a small increase in post-natal depression in women who had established careers compared with those that did not, but there's lots of good evidence that going to work is protective of depression in the longer-term.

BonnieBumble · 12/04/2012 10:43

YANBU. I felt quite hurt when a few older people expressed surprise when I announced my pregnancy as I was such a "career woman". I don't even know what they mean by that, I enjoyed my job but I wasn't in charge of a top FTSE company or anything.

I actually took a career break and am now starting a business and getting comments about "not being able to have it all" whatever that means. I just want to put food on the table and enjoy myself in the process, not sure why I should be demonised for that.

PeelingBells · 12/04/2012 10:45

I find the word career fascinating. It can be used as such a weapon and put down. I don't think it is wrong for an admin assistant to say that she has a career. She may have studied and progressed quite a lot to get where she is. One of my mates said to me, "hmmm you've never really had a career have you?" really got me thinking. I could easily package myself up to say I have had one but I can't be arsed.

Below a wall of text on Raymond William's definition.
From Raymond Williams, Keywords- A vocabulary of culture and society. 1983. Fontana Press.

"CAREER
Career is now so regularly used to describe a person?s progress in life, or, by derivation from this, his (sic) profession or vocation that it is difficult to remember, in the same context, its original meanings of a racecourse and a gallop ? though in some contexts, as in the phrase ?careering about?, these survive.

Career appeared in English from eC16, from fw carrière, F ?racecourse, rw carraria, L ?carriage road, from carrus, L ? wagon. It was used from C16 for racecourse, gallop, and by extension any rapid or uninterrupted activity. Though sometimes applied neutrally, as of the course of the sun, it had a predominant C17 and C18 sense not only of rapid but of unrestrained activity. It is not easy to be certain of the change of implication between, for example, a use in 1767 ? ?a?beauty?in the career of her conquests? ? and Macaulay?s use in 1848 ? ?in the full career of success?. But it is probable that it was from eC19 that the use without derogatory implication began, especially with reference to diplomats and statesmen. By mC19 the word was becoming common to indicate progress in a vocation and then the vocation itself.

At this point, and especially in the course of C20, career becomes inseparable from a difficult group of words of which work, labour and especially job are prominent examples. Career is still used in the abstract spectacular sense of politicians and entertainers, but more generally it is applied, with some conscious and unconscious class distinction, to work or a job which contains some implicit promise of progress. It has been most widely used for jobs with explicit internal development ? ?a career in the Civil Service?- but it has since been extended to any favourable or desired or flattered occupation ? ?a career in coalmining?. Career now usually implies continuity if not necessarily promotion or advancement, yet the distinction between a career and a job only partly depends on this and is often associated also with class distinctions between different kinds of work. On the other hand, the extension of the term, as in ?careers advice?, sometimes cancels these associations, and there has been an American description of ?semi-skilled workers? as having a ?flat career trajectory?.

It is interesting that something like the original metaphor, with its derogatory C17 or C18 sense, has reappeared in descriptions of some areas of work and promotion as the rat-race. But of course the derogatory sense is directly present in the derived words careerism and careerist, which are held carefully separate from the positive implications of career. Careerist is recorded from 1917, and careerism from 1933: the early uses refer to parliamentary politics.

Fw: immediate forerunner of a word, in the same or another language
Rw: ultimate traceable word, from which ?root? meaning are derived. "

GeekCool · 12/04/2012 10:47

I got as far as 'cajoled my husband down the aisle' and puked.

They should just write 'we hate women' a hundred times instead of these articles and I would be less annoyed.

samandi · 12/04/2012 10:48

I actually hate the word career full stop. Especially when used to describe someone who say works as an admin assistant. "I will be giving my career up when I have my children". It's not a career it's a job!

I think it's perfectly possible to have a career as an administrative assistant and actually find this comment slightly belittling towards women who do administrative work. To my understanding, having a career means having an occupation where there is some training and progress along the way, but it does not have to mean "professional" in the sense of formal education.

samandi · 12/04/2012 10:51

*I got as far as 'cajoled my husband down the aisle' and puked.

They should just write 'we hate women' a hundred times instead of these articles and I would be less annoyed.*

Yes, what on earth is it with these women that they are constantly having to cajole and manipulate their husbands, who are so fantastic and who love them so much, down the aisle?

GeekCool · 12/04/2012 10:56

samandi us women are masters of entrapment - the only thing we are good at apparently. We tear away at the soul of these poor blokes, begging hysterically for them to give us a child as our emotions run wild.

Hmm

Apparently (according to that rag) men don't seem to want to get married/have kids willingly, they have to be convinced.

LadyHarrietdeSpook · 12/04/2012 11:00

Peeling Bells Your post is one of THE reasons I love Mumsnet.

Thanks for the background info.

BTW NOT being sarcastic.

This is not any old message board.

StuckInTheFensAwayFromHome · 12/04/2012 11:06

I hate the phrase with a passion as well.
Just because I have a career - which I take to mean that I have a job that I enjoy and I keep learning and progressing in, and the fact that none of my relationships in my 20's were good enough to become permanent does not pigeon hole me into a 'type'. Everyone assumes I am a 'career woman' and that all that matters to me is my 'career'.

Actually I always wanted to meet the right man and maybe have a family. Now in my mid 30's this has happened... But I get sourcat face looks/comments when I mention this along the lines of... but a 'career woman' can't have a family or if she does its detrimental to the family.
Bollocks on 2 levels

  1. Firstly I am not this label of a career woman, but funnily enough it was handy to have a good job and be independent while wading through the quagmire of bad relationships
  2. Secondly, having a job plus a family isn't always a bad thing,

Argghhhh
And breathe...

GeekCool · 12/04/2012 11:11

Funny isn't it that a man is not told that having a 'career' is detrimental to the family.

hairytale · 12/04/2012 11:20

Yanbu. I have a career and have just had first DD aged 44. People will assume I "put my career ahead of having a family" but the would be very mistaken.

I also hate the fact that people assume I won't go back to work now, because that's what mothers do - it's 2012 FFS.

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