If you can't afford children you shouldn't have them.

[MrsArchieTheInventor]

"If you can't afford children you shouldn't have them" [and] "child benefit and tax credits should be abolished" with the mantra that if she choses to be childless she should not be forced to pay for the 'breeding' choices of others.

A Facebook friend of mine. I didn't retaliate.

When my ex dh and I claimed HB while he was still training on the job, we were paid our HB which we gave to the landlord but the council would regularly check that we were actually paying the rent and we had to provide proof.

All this division into honest tax payers and benefit scroungers is so artificial I feel. Most people, or at least most families, will both contribute taxes to society and also benefit from those taxes by sending children to school, being treated in hospital, even driving along a road, many will also receive benefits at some point whether child benefit, state pension, some tax credits, or shock horror JSA or incapacity benefit etc.

As someone said the children for whom the benefits are being received will in the majority of cases grow up to pay taxes themselves.

It's all so un-generous, bigoted, and Daily Mail. I'm alright Jack, but look at them lazy feckers !!

Shirley, I'm just pointing it out. Not having a dig. It's still income.

what i always find odd about threads like this is that i think it is quite normal for families to limit family size based on income to generally 2 children.

I forget, the MPs that got caught making fraudulant expenses claims (on top of their high wages) - were they prosecuted for benefit fraud? Tax payers money. They need to lead by example

Shirley, you know you won't get an answer don't you? Because there isn't one.

Yes there are currently more people actively seeking work than there are jobs. But what WMW will say is that people are NOT actively seeking work and the figures are made up. Because we all know that unemployed people are essential lazy good-for-nothings, don't we? (and yes I am being sarcastic before WMW quotes me with joy).

bejeezus is right. No-one talks about the tax avoiders because let's face it, it's complicated. Did you get the changes the government made that I spoke about? That Osborne changed the Tax Acts of 1998 and 2009 to make it easier for companies to be based offshore and therefore to avoid paying UK tax. If they do end up paying tax they can claim it back as the cost of expenses in paying for their foreign offices. I wish I was making that up!

People don't froth about it because they barely understand it. It's far easier to say, "ooh I know such and such down the road who has bought a brand new TV yet they are on benefits!" Who knows a company MD who fiddles tax on a regular basis? And it's far easier for the media and government to make us believe that there are benefits cheats everywhere, to even commission and pay for TV adverts warning us about benefit fraud, when in actual fact there are more people fiddling their books yet you don't see TV ads warning people about claiming for expenses that aren't really there do you?

I would like to point out that some benefits are taxable, for example long term Incapacity Benefit.

The unemployed pay loads of tax , I mean just look at all the fags and booze they buy with their benefits.

Rhubarb - exactly!

I don't understand tax stuff. I'm not ashamed of that, I just don't. But I can understand easily when my cousin tells me she wants another baby but she's going to wait until her oldest is 4 before TTC so that she gets the maximum amount of time before she is told she needs to start looking for her first ever job.

It's frustrating though Rhubarb. Really, really frustrating. I do happen to know a tax evader (erm, or is he a tax avoider - he's never paid tax at all, self employed and just doesn't put any returns in, ever) and I know people who manipulate the system by paying themselves the bare minimum from their business in order to avoid paying PAYE or NI, and then paying themselves the extra and booking it to "loans". They then have their accountant sort out their business revenue to avoid corporation tax by various ways, and they claim WTC.

I think they're pretty scummy people actually, and I think what they're doing is far worse than someone who actually can't get a job getting some money from the government.

usualsuspect

So Outraged, why say that people on benefits shouldn't have kids until they can finance them when people who are fiddling the books and large corporations who are claiming tax back to fund offshore buildings, are allowed to have as many as they want?

Do you not see that whilst the goverment encourages large businesses to be based abroad, there are not going to be jobs for the UK unemployed. That whilst the government awards contracts to overseas companies, there are not going to be jobs. This creates a vicious cycle. Those who are made redundant can't find another job because companies are increasingly going abroad encouraged by a Tory government, so they are forced to claim benefits and then to add insult to injury they are told that the state will not fund any children they may want. Talk about making them feel like lower class citizens!

If companies were encouraged to be based here and if the government gave more help to small businesses and more grants to struggling ones, then there would be more jobs available which means less people on the dole and more money paid in taxes.

It's really that simple, but no-one wants you to know how simple it is, they'd rather you think it was all complicated and carry on blaming the poor.

I would love the government and others to say outright that they honestly believe that those that cannot house themselves and earn above minimum wage, shouldn't have children (and then need to claim benefits).

Then perhaps everyone would get off their arses and demand that the shit situation of wages being to low, living costs to high and unstable work (as it was in the 19th century when benefits first came into being), is changed.

I agree that the government should bring employment back into the UK. We need to start manufacturing too, it was what we were all about at one time. We rely too much on imports.

Well, Birds, the thing that is stopping me from actually losing my mind completely with rage, is that this government are making such appalling decisions that even their own supporters are starting to go " Wha?"

And as the stuff they're doing starts really biting people, there might, just might be a backlash - because it isn't just the very bottom level poor who are going to get royally fucked in the next few years, the MC are going to be in there too. and anyone who uses the NHS

Birdsgottafly - my dh and I earn less than £20k pa between us despite him working full-time and me working as much as I can self-employed and paying all the right taxes.

This is not enough to live on.

This morning we had a huge argument. I want him to find a job that pays a decent wage. He is afraid of losing job security. If he moves jobs, in his line of work, they could take him on for a few weeks and then let him go by saying that they no longer have the work to keep him going (it's happened before). This is why companies like his can pay shit wages because they know that workers are too scared to look elsewhere in case they find themselves without a job.

I have seriously considered jacking in my business and getting a secure job, however my ds has separation anxiety which results in many to-ing and fro-ing to school and back which most jobs wouldn't put up with, plus I've worked hard for 3 years to get my business to this stage.

Times are very desperate indeed and instead of frothing about the government we are going around in circles blaming each other. It's madness!

I work full time for less than 20k. I'm a single parent who receives no child support from the father of my children. I think the Tories would call me a Hard Working Taxpayer, and apparantly I'm supposed to be furious with all those benefit scroungers...

weirdly though I'm not. Maybe because I'm not a total meathead. I can see with my own experience that the money I get paid just does not go as far as it used to - and everything is getting more expensive. I'm not blaming the poor for that, I'm blaming the big business, the financial sector, the government (this one and the last one) because - and here's the thing - it's actually THEIR FAULT.

Rhubarb, I can see that andi agree, but I think the two things need to be dealt with separately. One would involve changes to the benefits system and one would involve changes to the tax system and the way it's regulated. I don't think one thing is morally acceptable and one isn't. They are equal things in their wrongness!

I don't disagree with what you are saying at all.

Who does she think is going to provide services for her in her later life?

And for most of us we can afford children thanks, just not to have our taxes paid into the bank accounts of private landlords/companies/MP's expenses etc.

Outraged, changes have already been made to the benefits system to make it harder for people to claim benefits. Equally changes have been made to the tax system, but weirdly these changes make it easier for large companies to avoid paying taxes and to claim back any taxes they have paid.

I'm going now as I've finished my work early and want to enjoy a long weekend with my kids.

outraged its the magnitude of the 2 things though and the disproportanality of the 'benefit problem' in peoples minds

whatmeworry, I think our discussion is over.

Plus

But what WMW will say is that people are NOT actively seeking work and the figures are made up. Because we all know that unemployed people are essential lazy good-for-nothings, don't we? (and yes I am being sarcastic before WMW quotes me with joy)

Yes, far easier if you "discuss" for both of us instead :o

Fwiw I think what you see me saying means you didn't read my posts, or at least failed to understand them.

The truth is that the benefits bill (25% of state spend) AND the tax avoidance money are BOTH too big for a cash strapped state to ignore.

And if I was looking for savings, yes I would look very closely at people who want other people's money to pay for their babies.

Oh fab you're back! Did you see my post replying to you? Could you please let me know what you think can be done about the "benefits bill" in light of the inevitable 2.2 million unemployed at this time?