To think the working classes have been demonized in this country?

[AwkwardMary]

I just read an article about it...lost the page though...so can't link sorry! It really resonated with me...it spoke of how their are no positive working class characters on TV anymore...the comedy shows that portray them make them the lowest of the low and shows like TOWIE are only illustrating how the working classed "done good" are only as tacky and badly informed as they "ever were"...and how Little Britain was written by two middle class men who'd been to private schools...so who the eff were THEY to take the piss out of working class girls like they did?

In the 80s we had good, positive and sympathetic worknig class characters like Yosser and it spoke of how Brookside was born of the Thatcher Years and showed a truer representation of the hard working working classes. Those with respect for themselves and a good work ethic. The 50s, 60s and 70s had lots of good literature such as Kes and Saturday Night and Sunday Morning, Poor Cow, Up the Junction etc

These days people are all about moving forward and away from being working class...nothing wrong with that you may think...why shouldn't people aspire to a better lifestyle? Well of course they should but not if it means that anyone who isn't striving for a bigger house and more "things" is looked down on and called a chav.

Is it all about respectability? Have the real working classes lost their self respect?

(I am working class right through and often feel confused about my past and my present)

That does ring a bell AkwardMary

Right I am off to bed otherwise my 3 will be the ones turning up late wearing pyjamas, without their gym kit or a healthy snack.

Now add that to the fact that I am on benefits and live in a council house and by God there will be no saving me from the class snobs

I love these types of thread and I don't care how boring they are to others. Thanks for starting it AkwardMary, will catch up tomorrow.

Aah but Jaqueline - as I said upthread - I don't believe that there are enough feckless, workshy layabouts to justify with a label other than a personal one. 'Criminal' would work just as well for me. That way no confusion for anyone It seems to me these days that 'benefit cheat' or 'twoca' is lumped in together with 'working class' which has now been re-named as 'underclass' in certain media...

I'm off to bed now and I'm tired so being a bit slow' but I think we agree

'benefit cheat' or 'twoca' for example

An op of a thread on here recently defined the underclass as anyone who wouldn't bf affected by mansion tax

I mean BE affected ( not bf affected)

Two tv series spring to mind. Clocking Off which was on around 2000 and a one off drama called Never Never (which had John Simm in it) he played a loan shark on a council estate also around 2000. I only watched Never Never once when it was originally broadcast but its on youtube. I plan to watch it again as soon as ive got time.
It pisses me off that a lot of these dramas arent avilable on DVD.

I suppose "The Street" was a good example of a show which had lots of postive examples of working class people in it....it had very varied storylines and was a really brilliant series imo. Jimmy McGovern is a very talented man indeed...and that brings to mind This is England....an unbiased portrayal of the working classes maybe?

Another thought occurred to me re. "The Underclass"

By creating another class...ie "The Underclass" the middle classes can succesfully remove thmselves from the working classes cant they?

The middle classes ae struggling a lot right now...many are suffering from the effects of the cuts...but they can take comfort in an underclass... "Oh we may be struggling but we're still middle class because we're not working class or Underclass."...they are cushioned from becoming working class by the real working classes acting as a buffer between them and the "Underclass".

Very good point Mary 08:50

I agree, although I do subscribe to the idea that there are only two classes and this is now becoming more obvious and is more important to recognise now. Sociologists like to invent categories to define people, those categories need to be redefined.

I'm shocked that even the working class seem to think that there is an underclass. Why? is it because they hate to be at the bottom of the social pile, so it suits to have a class below them?

I don't think creating an 'underclass' enables the middle classes to remove themselves from the 'working class'.

A friend and I were discussing recently how his mum lived in a 'working class' area and had as much pride in her conduct and appearance as her neighbours did. She scrubbed her front step daily apparently!

The 'working classes' have traditionally and historically worked hard, done their best by their families, aspired to 'better' themselves either educationally or financially.

There are some skewed ideas of middle class nowadays. It's an unhelpful term because for some people it means money, others education, others manners and conduct. For my mum, being middle class means owning your own home (outright not mortgaged because that describes her) and not living hand to mouth (i.e. being able to save rather than relying on 'the never never'). For me, it's about conduct, education and occupation. For some of my neighbours it's about how stylish and 'classy' your home is and where you do your shopping (food and clothes).

The 'underclass' for me describes the 'entitled' the "I know my rights". Those who are happy and willing to play out their whole lives in public either on the streets, on FB, on JK. Those who don't have respect for themselves, others, where their live, society/community. Those who have removed themselves from 'respectable' society. Those who are brazen about their lack of education/employment and wear it as a badge of honour (and yes, I have met/known those people). For me, a lot of 'class' is about attitude rather than tangible things like wealth. And yes, I think that some very wealthy people are members of the 'underclass' - they just have the means to keep themselves out of it on appearances.

There is nothing not respectable about working - whatever your job is, how ever much money you earn or whoever owns your house.

There are people who say that the welfare system is partly responsible and I agree. Anyone who has ever claimed benefits for any length of time, or lived in areas where there are a lot of people who do, will know that it is perfectly possible to present yourself/be middle class and live on benefits. It is also perfectly possible to be a member of the 'underclass'.

I was a single mother on benefits living in social housing when my son was young. And no one knew (who didn't actually know of course!). I had the same standards, values, 'lifestyle', conduct and attitude towards myself, my family and society (good and less good!) when my income was benefits as I did when I was a married professional graduate and we had a combined household income of £50k.

Phew that was long!

The really, really awful thing about the catergorisation of the underclasses is that everyone is thinking that it is made up of feckless, valueless, workshy people who know their rights and take pride in never working.

Can people not see that this is an appaling attitude to have, yes some people who are considered the underclass will have this attitude however, a lot of people in this class come from homes where working has never been the done thing, their parents and possibly grandparents have never worked, education has never been considered important, they have never had the benefit of values that say the working classes and middle classes have. Yes OK their values differ but they have them.

A lot of these people never had a chance in life and are now stuck being classed as an underclass, looked down on by every other social group and stereotyped by typical Daily Mail sensationalism.

In my opinion people who are placed in the underclass catergory are not all workshy, feckless, know their right, don't contribute anything to society and brag about it people, but more those who have had the most appaling start in life, the most vulnerable in society who have not had the benefit of a work ethic instilled in them and who probably struggle to read and write because education was never considered important.

Yes the working classes get a bad time of it in the press and from other classes but they have always had their pride. Every working class person I know is proud of who they are and the work they do and proud to be working class.

I don't like the fact that an underclass has developed I think it is horrible and as I have said previously I believe that the hidden class or disaffectecd class would be a better description for it, but I can not ignore it just because I don't like what it is called, to do that would be to try and brush that whole group of people under the carpet.

I understand that I am rambling now but it just annoys me that here we are talking about how the working classes have been demonized and how wrong that is and yet in the same breath demonizing another whole class of people by refering to them as work shy etc.

Yabu, working class is idealised in this country and everyone likes to pretend they are salt of the earth. Aspiration is sadly a dirty word to many.

I think the phrase 'working class' has been hijacked. The people I have met who have spoken in defense of 'the working class' have been those who have never held down a job in their life and lived entirely on benefits, but refused to believe they were anything other than 'working class'. Apparantly pointing out the flaw in their argument made me a middle class snob.

yanbu

It lands like

(a) they are chavs
(b) they are hoodies
(c) they are benefit scroungers
(d) they eat shit food from Iceland
etc etc

I find it really sad, and also how easy it is to look down on people in the UK

the goverment is slowly introducing a "fuck em all" culture

Completely agree worldgonecrazy.

The working class has split out into those who still have the 'pride in their work' ethic, and those who have given up their values to live out of societies pocket. These are the 'underclass' (or sometimes referred to as 'welfare class').

"the goverment is slowly introducing a "fuck em all" culture"

Nope. Its introducing a 'your actions have consequences as we wont put up with your sh1t any longer' culture. And its about time too. We want to shrink the underclass, not grow it.

Where will it shrink to though looktoshinford? Where will they go if they're unemployable and there are not enough jobs?

Hmmm, looking at this again, I think that we are mostly all in agreement apart from the actual words used in our various descriptions.

For me personally I don't like any type of label for a group of people on benefits. It is a big misnomer (? sp) that people claiming benefits have anything else in common at all.

For instance, I know a neighbour who is currently claiming benefits. She is single, no children, hardworking but currently unemployed. She does rent her flat from the local housing association and her rent is fairly low in comparison to other rents in our area (private). I have no doubt that within a few weeks she will be back on her feet again. She has tenacity and has been made redundant twice in three years. She will only remain on JSA for as long as is necessary to keep herself going.

I also have an ex bil a few streets away. He is 39. He is a heroin addict and has spent all of his adult life in and out of prison. He has no interest in ever coming off benefits. He actually refers to every second Tuesday as 'payday'. This winds me up no end and we bicker about it a lot. He is a bright, humerous man. He also has no interest whatsoever in growing up and acting in a socially responsible manner. He has even burgled my garden shed before - stealing his own nephews bike.

According to the Daily Mail they are both part of the 'underclass'. (thats how they both feel.)

But, these two people are not the same in any way - class or otherwise. In fact the only thing they have in common is that they both think/refer to me as 'posh'. They both cite that I am 'posh' because I went to private school (forces/scholarship) and now own my own house (with a mortgage). I am however a single mum of two, I take any money offered by the government (cos I is not silly!) atm this is child benefit only, but in the past has also included wtc/ctc. I am not posh!!

I guess my point is that I believe 'working classes' do still very much exist, but not in the way they are portrayed on TV, in the media etc.

I'm interested in the idea of the working class expanding especially as we are all meant to be middle class now.

It kind of chimes with my own experience.

littleAlbert How do you mean? We're all meant to be middle class?

MissLemon the examples you've illustrated highlight what we all know reall but which some people are afraid to point out...it's about respectability....you are respectable or you aren't. The single woman on benefits is..your BIL isn't. There seems to have been a loss of basic pride amongst a certain portion of society.

For me the lines became blurred late 80's. I grew up on a council estate with working class people. The people left when mortgages became feasible leaving my estate without the good role models. Then the housing boom where tradesmen, estate agents, property investors etc became good wage jobs so although working class they could afford a middle class lifestyle. I would be classed as working class but I have a middle class lifestyle, there are those who consider themselves middle class now leading a working class lifestyle being priced out of their area of choice.

People who work are not demonised. Nobody demonises the 'working class'. Very few people can get through life without working. We are all working class.

People who live off benefits all their life are the 'underclass' and are demonised (I exclude people trying to get a job or who are truely disabled).

People who work in low paid manual jobs often resent lazy scroungers in their community.

Oh, I am on a tea break at work so don't have the time to read all the thread (don't hate me) I will catch up later. I just thought some of you may be interested in a book by Owen Jones called Chavs: Demonisation of the Working Classes. I have almost finished it and found it interesting and well worth reading.

Interestingly I was asking a mum at the nursery gates what she thinks of the school her eldest goes to, she said it was probably fine if for girls, but she wanted to take her sons out as "you can't be sure they will be sitting next to a middle class child". Stuned, on so many levels.

Thank you Meowchut! that was the review I read which made me begin the thread! MoreBeta read the thread....we have been over what you said...