To say some people think they are entitled to every bloody thing in the world and the world is full of rude obnoxious people with no manners.

[Sootie]

I went to town today for the first time with BOTH my children.

My baby started whimpering a bit so I went to Boots to get some milk and as I paid he started crying alot. I went walking up to the Boots baby room and there was a woman standing in the next aisle looking at things with her pushchair, so I said "excuse me". The cow glared at me, tutted and then got her pushchair and quickly pushed it towards the baby room and stood there with a "I was here before you, so fuck off" look. I was SHOCKED. Why the hell couldn't she tell me she was waiting to go in? Anyway, so I took my baby out of his pushchair and fed him standing up.

So we walked a little bit and DD wanted an icecream, so I bought her a McFlurry. I went over to the tissues and got her one and wrapped it around the cup and as I turned around to get another one a woman and her daughter had come and put all their food around the tissue and ketchup station so I couldn't reach the tissues. When I said "excuse me, can I get a tissue", the woman just glared at me. So I reached over regardless and got another one. She could see I had a pushchaair and child - rude cow.

Finally, for the icing on the cake, someone stole my parking ticket after I paid for it...

This was not a good trip. Thanks for reading!

I didn't say that about Christians. I said Christianity as a whole. These problems are down to the privatisation of morality. You can all scoff at me if you like. This is predictable. People have no need to treat others as they would want to be treated themselves because they have forgotten that it matters and nobody has taught them.

OP don't you think that you also sound a bit "entitled"? Having children doesn't mean others should move out of your way because you want to get somewhere. Seems there is a distinct lack of manners on both parts. "excuse me, can I please get through/ a tissue, thank you" is what I've found to be the trick.

Morality has nowt to do with Christianity

hiddenhome - that's not necessarily true. A secular riposte to your argument wrt the privatisation of morality - which I think you might be extending towards a diminution in the altruistic values in play in public space and between (unknown) others - is the Prisoner's Dilemma.

The idea of that (the PD) is often extended into evolutionary theory, arging that altruism is hardwired into us because it is evolutionarily terrific.

Following this (secular) argument, it could be said that religion - in the form in which you are talking about it (as a moral and ethical code rather than worship of the non-human) is a late development, even a finessing, of this prior, inherent nonindividualistic altruism.

I don't know how on earth I have managed to grow up to be a nice person and have moral values, and, in fact, how it is that I teach my children exactly that philosophy "treat people how you would like to be treated"

I have to admit that I think one of the challenges for humanity is to learn, again, and understand, how cherishable the gift of life is, and to love it, passionately, in all its manifestations.

That includes being (mindfully) kind, standing up for its values and against its destruction and diminution, and ... being kind to women with children having a stressy day ... and (other thread reference alert) wasps.

'Manners don't cost anything' as my Mum used to say. That was in the 70's and it's still true now. They haven't gone up in price or anything.

To think, once upon a time this thread was about saying excuse me and whether or not it's unreasonable to expect people to respond accordingly to that (and whether or not having children about when you do so makes any kind of difference).

Good times.

good point animula.

Please go easy on the OP. She may be feeling that she wants a bit of extra love and care ATM. Don't we all feel like that when we are sleep-deprived and in charge of 2 demanding children?

Christianity erased things too. Just saying.

We came home from living abroad six months ago and this is one of things that sticks out, manners are non exsistant now, I don't know why but the are so many rude people about, it's worse when out and about with children.

There also seems to be a lot more fat people that when we left five years ago.

I'm with OrmIrian (and Jamie, but that's probably beside the point) - I find a lot of kindness.

Igglepiggle - with your casual throwing of fatness into the heap I cannot help but feel you are wither sweetly naive of the ways of mn or deliberately provocative and going for full-on Mn-thread "Bingo".

I was accused of being rude on Sunday. Just leaving tge venue of dd's party and a woman was stood holding the door open but to tge side, no-one in front of me she was looking beyond me as though she was waiting for someone so I walked through it and then heard her calling me all sorts

We no longer need to be altruistic towards each other because we no longer rely on each other in order to survive. Our society is so far advanced that we can easily get by without needing the kindness or charity of strangers. We can become as selfish and rude as we like and it doesn't really affect us.

hiddenhome - the very shortest answer to that is to re-read this thread and notice how rudeness, unkindness and non-altruism produce emotional effects such as pain, distress and sadness. Not to mention higher-level responses such as disapproval and even anger.

I think we ignore such emotional repsonses at our peril. they are an early warning system, even a sort of morse code from the most primitive parts of our anatomy and psychology.

I reckon they tell us that we are hard-wired for kindness, for group-enhancement, for species-supportive actions.

I also think that the idea that we are technologically advanced enough to do without society and the group is a fantasy. a utopic dream of what might be possible (though one would ask "Why?") and is put paid to by the actual experience of our day to day lives.

And there is the last fact that all this technology, all this culture, all this communication - it's beautiful to us. It's pleasing. We are hard-wired to find it lovely, to drive ourselves towards it, as users and as creators. And it is communally-oriented and communally-achieved.

Fair point, but Christianity has nothing to do with that.

I am nice to people because it makes me feel good. Actually, the fact that I benefit from being nice means it's not really altruism, it's self-serving. I also hope to create a karmic virtuous circle. If I'm nice then nice will come back to me.

Thanks for the replies.

Animula - Lovely advice! I wish I was that brave to start talking to people like that! I paid for my ticket and left the card in the machine. The man standing behind me in queue must have taken it...I literally walked around the corner and came back and the ticket had gone and the man had disappeared.

And to those of you asking - yes I did say please to get the tissue. I didn't say please to the woman standing infront of the baby room, as I said "excuse me" to her...

Also, must admit, I may have looked a bit flustered because it was hot, but I was smiling at everyone as far as I am aware!

Yes, they do cause pain, but that seems to have the effect of breeding hostility and defensivness which causes pain to ourselves, but we don't seem to recognise it How many people just react rather than make a conscious effort to change and stop being rude, selfish and unpleasant. Once you're caught in the trap, it's difficult to escape. This is why people end up going on anger management courses. Responding to a situation in anger is seemingly irresistable in spite of the pain that it causes the angry person.

hiddenhome. Again, I agree with that. BUT I think religion has got nothing to do with that lack of self-awarenesss. I think poverty, abuse, and being brought up to feel not good and therefore unable to give out good stuff are the cause

Also, I don't think I am entitled to anything. Woman in Boots was standing in the aisle blocking the way to the baby room with her pushchair. How was I supposed to know she was waiting for the baby room too? I wasn't going to push through and get in before her!

I'm aware of that. I was just thinking of different way in which we've changed and how people don't really need to be pleasant to others anymore. There are many reasons, religion was just one thing that I happened to be thinking of at that time. When we were in school, we were taught how to be kind to others, some people have never been taught. Religion can give people a framework for how they are to treat others and function within their lives and society as a whole. Of course, people will reject this notion because we live in a largely secular society now, but it does have its value in helping others to be aware of how they treat their fellow human beings. I'm not trying to be inflamatory by posting these ideas.

A woman was rude to my in Aldi yesterday because I started putting my items on the conveyor belt too soon - I hadn't noticed that she had stuff in her trolley. She snapped at me. I find that people are very quick to react negatively these days. She assumed that I was pushing in when I wasn't, I just failed to see her stuff. A negative mindset will cause these reactions.

Don't worry Hiddenhome. for what it's worth, I thought it was all quite interesting. I like Nietzsche a lot, who said that our task was to build new temples and stuff in the post-religion age. (Though the extent to which we are in the post-religion age remains questionable, I think).

And I realise that a lot of what I think is a kind of secularised version of the thought of Catholic writer Friedrich von Hügel mixed with Buddhism!

sootie have a lovely, lovely evening. And for what it's worth, I do rather think that you are entitled to a bit of love and respect - as are we all. And again, congratulations on your new arrival (and older one too).

Thank You animula!