To think becoming a senior civil servant gives you the right to make grown men cry

[dietcokehead]

Disclaimer: I know some very senior civil servants are lovely.

I am a regular who has name changed for reasons that will be obvious!

I have recently joined a Central Government department. In the past few weeks I have heard countless tales of very senior staff throwing more junior colleagues out of meetings, telling them they're crap, reducing them to tears, threatening to end careers. Offences include missing an item from an agenda, being perceived to not be fully prepared, having forgotten to make a phone call, 'mumbling'...

In the department I work in there are a handful of people who think this is allowed as they have reached a certain point in their career, and admittedly done very well indeed. And get away with it. People are genuinely scared by them.

Probably less an am I being unreasonable, and more an am I being naive? I've had twenty years in the private sector and heard the odd story like this, but this behaviour seems to be engrained in my Gov Dept, and I have heard it is not uncommon in others

Civil servant 20 years and never heard or seen that of SCS, Ministers are another matter....

Just sounds like normal business - most are nice, some are assholes.

I once knew a bloke who was a VAT officer and got the shit kicked out of him by an electrician who didn't like the way he was spoken to. That electrician did what we all secretly wanted to do ourselves.

You've "heard countless tales".

Everything gets magnified and altered in the telling.

Have worked in 5 different central government departments and have never seen or heard of anything like this from a senior civil servant. I've twice heard of it at a junior level (most junior grade bullied by the next grade up). But never in the scs.

Like most things it depends on the department and the team. The policy teams of some central government departments are notoriously competitive and it's the SCS that foster that culture. Can be a very tough gig, central govt. I don't think people always realise.

I know quite a few people in Central Govt and they report it happening - I think it's quite peculiar to central govt though rather than civil service out in the country.

When I worked in the MOD is happened a lot amongst the civilian staff (one of the reasons I left). I had a warrant officer call me a 'silly cunt' one day and when I looked like he said they were taking bets on who could make me cry first

This is Whitehall.

MOD can be a bit of a weird sub-culture, I hear.

Gosh, I wonder where you work? I'm also in Whitehall and have come across a fair few plonkers, as you do, but no more than I did when working in other sectors.

well I work in Central Gov - perhaps I have been very lucky for a long time or am super nice/scary

Blimey laurie

I have been seconded recently to 2 government depts and have never seen sight of this - only people running round in circles for the director generals and ministers.

Perhaps I work for naice depts (BIS and home office)

Yes perhaps you are the scary one fenella.

I have worked for all of my career in the private sector - hideously aggressive behaviour there. Civil service seems remarkably civilised in comparison.

12 years in Whitehall, never seen this happen so blatantly with SCS. I've seen more subtle undermining and being difficult to deal with, and shouting from Ministers, but not as per the OP.

Agree MoD is a bit of a special case, though.

Spent a few years in the CS (HMT and FO) and never really came across this. One ambassador was just a tosser and one minister a bit scary but it was fair enough because he was running the country. I admired his ferocious ambition for the country actually.

On the whole I found the CS very respectful and disciplined. Not what I found when I left the CS and went to work with journalists. I miss it. Sorry you are not finding the same thing.

I have worked with blokes who were ex-MOD from Abbeywood.

Lacking in social skills and very old school, desk thumping characters.

I've worked in three Whitehall departments (over 10 years) and never seen anything like this.

I have heard about two incidents of bullying, but nothing on the scale you've described. More like an antagonistic relationship between (relatively junior level) manager and member of staff getting out of hand.

Meanwhile, I've heard far worse about the private sector from DH.

One of many reasons I've always stuck to working in Parliaments for MPs/MEPs rather than going for CS - always seems a nicer environment

Well I really hope it all exaggeration!

One incident that I know is true (witnessed by half a dozen colleagues) was an SCS1 throwing a grade five out of a meeting. She reduced him to tears. She had asked him to prepare a presentation and felt he hadn't understood the task. A couple of minutes in she stopped him and shouted that he should get out of her sight!

SCS1 and grade 5 are the same thing...

Sorry, not dismissing your story. Just looking fr clarity.

Well, they have to report them then for bullying. There are procedures for this.

7, sorry Nothey. I'm a contractor so not in the system.

this sort of behaviour used to be common place when i worked for >insert name of large supermarket chain<

in 2003, not long ago. usually store managers throwing their toys out of the pram...sometimes regional managers...

i thought it was unprofessional and likely to result in litigation then, and that it was.

I think that's what I have found so surprising travail, the man in question reports to another SCS1 (think that's right, Deputy Director?), she knows about this incident but as the other SCS1 is on the up nobody seems to want to challenge it!

As I say, I'm a contractor so will keep my head down, complete my programme, then be off if it's really hat bad!

Do any of the females responsible have the initials JT?
It would not surprise me.