to feel uncomfortable about hiring a cleaner who is not paying taxes on her earnings?

[PatronSaintOfDucks]

We are currently looking for a cleaner. We never had one before, so we know very little about the process. We rang up one lady who advertised via our local convenience store notice board. She came over for an "interview", brought all sorts of ID and promised references. She says she has lots of clients in our area. But it seemed obvious that she is not declaring her earnings for taxes. We asked if we could pay her by direct debit, she declined and asked for cash on the day. We asked if she had insurance and offered to contact the company who insures our house to see if we could add her onto it. She asked us not to bother.

On one hand, she probably does not earn much, even with a busy week, and needs the money that would have gone to taxes. On the other hand, this kind of work feels somehow wrong. We would have been happy to provide "job security" such as a formal contract that would outline such things as holiday pay and notice periods, but this feels weird.

Am I being unreasonable for feeling this way? If she has all the clients she says she has, do most people not mind it?

Yanbu, I would not employ her. For two reasons, shes not paying tax and she's not insured. It's lose lose for you.

If it feels wrong don't use her, she can't be the only cleaner in your area and her finances are none of your business.

Most people I know pay their cleaners cash in hand.

Are you planning to employ her? If you do then you need to sort out her tax.

Why does she need to be insured?
It's up to her to sort out her tax, after all she's the only one who knows whether her total earnings, from several employers, exceed her tax allowance.
She may of course be earning while claiming benefits.

Patron, did you actually ask her if she declares her income?

As someone who takes home a section of my income in cash I sincerely hope it isn't presumed that I don't declare it.

Ask her if you must, but don't presume.

We have not yet made a decision about whether to employ her. She is the only person we saw so far. We will try to see if we can find anyone else. I am just wondering how "normal" this is. The matter of insurance concerns me. Some instructions on "how to hire a cleaner" I read online also state that, as an employer, I should be sorting her taxes out as RitaMogan suggested. But I would not like to essentially report her for tax avoidance by trying to sort her taxes out. And she will be against this anyway. :(

zeno, no we did not ask. It feels really rude. I would not like to "presume" so openly. But there are indications that bother me - no direct debits (although we could set one up on every day of her work as opposed to the end of the month), no insurance, she also several times emphasised that "she is not a business."

My old cleaner was working 40hrs a week cash in hand and claiming benefits. When I asked to pay her by bank transfer (easier for me) she refused as 'her accountant advise against it'. She and her DH both worked full time. She was a great cleaner and I really liked her, but this part bothered me a lot. We parted ways shortly after.

If you want to be sure its above board then go with a proper domestic cleaning company rather than an ad in the window.

It would be pretty unusual for them to be your employee, usually you would be contracting their services.

I have paid cleaners cash in hand over the years and never had any qualms about it. Their personal income tax situation is none of my business.

i opted to pay a couple of quid more to a registered company - with insurance. the fella who does it is awesome and almost part of the family.

i love tuesdays

Redbindy, what happens is she gets injured "on the job" while cleaning my house? We have rather steep stairs and she is not young. And I am not just worried about the liability for myself. I would like to be a decent kind of employer who provides good working conditions and a level of protection. I am insured in my work, my self-employed dance teacher is insured, why should the cleaner not have the same security?

You don't like to presume openly or to ask outright, and you are going to withhold work from her instead, based on your presumption.

Can you not see that that is a nonsensical position to take?

You are not her sole employer, she is self-employed and works for lots of people. So from a tax point of view you do not need to pay her taxes for her (if you want to check this yourself, go to the self-assessment website where it lists the criteria).

My own opinion is that I give anyone employed by us a cash or a cheque and its up to them to sort out their tax with the Inland Revenue. She may prefer cash to use through the week, you don't know she is definitely not declaring it. If I knew someone was claiming benefits, I wouldn't employ them, but if they simply prefer their money in cash, then I would leave cash with a clear conscience, who knows what they are doing at the end of the tax year.

Well, on the one hand, you are doing nothing wrong in paying her in cash. It is her responsibility to declare her income, not yours to sort out her tax.

However, if you have strong suspicions that she isn't declaring earnings and possibly acting fraudulently then I would look elsewhere. She's very stupid if she is acting like this, because if she has a lot of local business, it only takes one person to report her and she could be in deep shit.

Up to you but it sounds like you hear alarm bells

Can you go via an agency? I use Perfect Cleaning in London for the same concerns you have.

She may be avoiding tax. Or she may not have a bank account - quite a lot of people still don't. Or she may have a controlling DP who takes any money paid into her bank account straight back out. What I am trying to say is there may be valid reasons why she wants cash. But it is up to you if you want to give cash knowing it may not be declared or not.

You could say to her that you are happy to pay her cash, but that you will be talking to the tax office as you want to make sure this is okay with them? Then if it is genuine reasons, shouldn't be an issue.

AuntLucyInPeru, thanks, I feel the same.

I guess I should consider a company. Whether people pay tax or not is definitely not my business, but it would be hard for me to ignore.

how many hours are we talking about? if it's 3, she is probably legitimately self-employed, so what she declares is for her to sort out. If it's 30, you are right and you are technically her employer and responsible.
If you are insistent on someone who carries insurance you are going to be looking a very long time! you may have cover under your house insurance policy.

Would a cleaner be earning more than the personal allowance for tax anyway? Possibly not. Maybe she prefers the convenience of cash. Maybe she doesn't have a bank account. If she is working on a self-employed basis (which I assume she must be as she works for multiple people) then her tax declaration is her own business. You have no way of knowing if she is keeping proper records of her income/earnings & completing accurate self assessments. Being paid in cash would not prevent her from doing things "correctly" though.

If you are uncomfortable with her then do not employ her - but personally I would leave her to sort her tax out for herself if she is self-employed.

I've usually got cleaners through agencies. The agencies are responsible for insurance. I pay annual agency fees, but the cleaners are paid cash in hand directly by the clients (ie me), and they are responsible for sorting out their own tax as they are self employed.

So I think YABU on the tax issue, but YANBU on the insurance issue. I would just go through an agency to be safe.

Insurance for a self employed cleaner for a year is under £50, she would be mad not to has it and you to employ her without it.

She may not earn enough to pay tax (I don't)

And even though I do accept monthly bank transfers for some clients I have these with a few cash paying so I have some cash flow.

All is declared & books kept.

I guess that side is her business but asking about the insurance & references are yours to ask

I pay my lovely cleaner cash. She was recommended to me. She works 5/6 days a week in another job earning £6.30 an hour, which I know she pays tax on. She works like a slave in her other job. She's a single mum with no financial or other support from her exH.
I wouldn't dream of asking her about whether she declares her earnings from me, that's her business.
I haven't ever considered insurance.
I would suggest employing someone you feel comfortable and confident with.
FWIW everyone I know who has a cleaner pays them cash in hand.
Hope that helps

Go via an agency, give yourself peace of mind.

zeno, I only trying to understand the situations. As I said, I never had a cleaner before and do not know how things work, so no need to get on a moral high horse. She refused to even consider an offer of improving the conditions of her work (i.e. insurance) that would have been arranged at no cost to her. This seems strange to me.

lesley33, I take your point. Thanks for the info! I did not think about these possibilities.