To think Alan Sugar is right

[Grag]

Reading this article I think Lord Sugar has it pretty much spot on regards kids being brought up with their heads in the clouds expecting to get jobs earning millions of pounds and not being prepared to work in order to become successful. I have worked with young people that have reached the age of 21-22 without ever working, due to their parents funding them through university, and while they might have their book smarts, their common sense, not to mention work ethic, is seriously lacking. I worked pretty much from secondary school onwards and I think earning my own money made me appreciate the value of it a lot more.

I think the boomer generation need to get off the backs of the young actually

I agree morebeta.

Incidentally, Sugar gave his own son a job in daddy's business, which of course, there's nothing wrong with.

When Sugar Jnr appeared on an episode of The Apprentice his business acumen passed me by. Maybe it was a bad day or his dad has spotted something that's beyond me, apart from the obvious, that is.

Bill Gates did not start with nothing either. Not saying he isn't a genius and worked very hard but he isn't from a poor underprivelleged background.

I don't know if I think it's that simple anymore.

I've held down a job continuously since I was 13 (I'm now 36), including through my degree, post-graduate work and having children. I'm not sure I want my DC to do the same.

Some studies can be very hard to juggle with paid work. You don't find too many medical or engineering students working 25 hours a week in the local supermarket and still graduating with flying colours. There's a reason these sorts of professions still tend to have a disproportionate number of students from well-off backgrounds.

My networking at university was severely curtailed as a result of having to work so many hours, and for many graduates it is networking that provides as many opportunities as their actual graduation result.

I also got myself in a situation where because I became so independent and self-sufficient, I had in effect burned my bridges and was unable to take some risks and opportunities, or take an unpaid internship to advance my career, because I was in the rat race where I had to earn in order to pay the bills.

Compare that to my bosses DC who have all had much more financial support and worked far less than I did. As a result they have been able to take many more opportunities and risks, which have paid off. They deserve every inch of their success because while money and opportunity may have opened doors for them, only their own abilities have allowed them to go through those doors IYSWIM. But it's taught me a lot about balance.

I won't be encouraging my DC to be lazy arses, and I will encourage them to hold down jobs, but I would also like them to do less than I have, as I think it's actually held me back, rather than pushed me forward.

Interestingly I wanted to do a paper round as a teenager (I didn't have any money of my own and was fed up) and my parents refused to let me as they felt it would detract from my studies. I'm torn now as to whether this was a valid attitude. Should we be encouraging children to do paid work when they should be focusing on school work?

Because of the high numbers of children getting A*s etc universities are now looking for that somethng extra to distinguish the applicants.Being able to juggle a job/volunteering and pass exams is seen as a positive,especially in highly competatives courses such as medicine.

I had one member of staff refuse to tidy up an area at tge back of tge office because they have a degree I asked if I should find someone who didn't have one and make them do it instead?

bruffin I don't doubt that but in that case volunteering, especially in an area relevant to the course, is the way to go.

You can cut down your volunteering when you need to concentrate on your studies.

It's less easy to cut your hours if you're working.

What concerns me is that young people from families who need the money diminish their chances of academic success by working for a wage and may not make it to university as a result. If they make it they may damage their degree by having to work while a student. That's not a problem anyone from a more comfortable background will face.

I'm from a working class background but luckily my parents were able to support me and my siblings without having to rely on our wages. Even if not, it would have taken exceptional hardship for my parents to even think about jeopardising my studies with a job.

They wanted me to do better than they had and that meant concentrating on the education they never had a chance of because they were too busy earning money to support their families.

Voluntary work: great. Working: no.

I agree with some of what Alan Sugar says. Bur he's being very unrealistic to expect 13 year olds to get a job. There is a lot of restrictions on what a 13 year old is allowed to do. Also DD2 tried hard to get a job in the first year of uni and didn't manage to get one until near the end of that year and that was just for the summer. She did work at a theme park in the 2nd year and has just started working in a cafe at a National trust house.

My two year old has already started earning her own money. She helps us sort out the aluminium cans from the steel cans, and she gets the money earned when we take them to the scrap man. So far she's earned £7.54 and is very chuffed with "her pennies".

She doesn't get paid for housework - washing up and sweeping the floors. That's just called "being part of a family".

I've been working since the age of 13, it meant I flunked my A-levels and didn't go to University but I had a great time working and wouldn't have changed the experience for anything.

But limited, the universities won't want you in the first place if you are not good enough. If you have to work that hard in the first place then you are not really university material., but then thats the problem with the university for all culture we have today.
If there are two students, both who have As , one has been able to juggle a job and getting As while the other has had to work really hard to get the A with no time for anything else they are going to go for the A with a job.

MY DS is yr 11 and it is being drummed into him, that universities are looking for that something etc

With respect to vocational education, in schools nowadays there are vocational paths and at dcs school and others i have heard from yr10 they can take a more vocational path with part of the study being at the local colleges.

WRT apprenticeships- there was an apprenticeship fare at my dcs school last year and most of the apprenticeships that were on offer were for 16 yr olds. I was looking for something for DS who should get high A levels eventually and there really wasn't anything at 18+ other than the national grid.
At them moment DS us juggling Lifeguard job at leisure centre (which includes ongoing training) , Scouts, DofE gold, volunteering at cubs and his gcses in the summer.

I assure you bruffin that I was good enough. I'm sure you didn't mean it to come out quite like that

My point about voluntary vs needing to work to earn money doesn't change.

Showing employers or universities that you have initiative is great and has always given you the edge.

Neglecting your studies because you need to earn money isn't.

I take your point about apprenticeships. I did indentures - excellent on-the-job training that no longer exists in my industry or many others because directors and shareholders want to save money at the expense of the company and the product.

I blame employers for that and those people who swallow the line that all young people are lazy, feckless and want to be on X-Factor.

If we want good adult employees we must tell the Government and employers we expect them to provide opportunities and good training to all those millions of worthwhile young people trying to get a start.

And I do think the expansion of higher education is a good thing. Manufacturing is dead. We need educated workers.

I wasn't allowed to work while at school or college. I couldn't get a nice shop job (there were very few student type jobs round here then) and my folks didn't want me at a factory or out delivering papers. They (rightly or wrongly) considered these to be unsuitable for a girl and too much to combine with getting good grades and family life. Also they felt horrified at the thought of me needing to work due to them being unable to afford my keep! Old fashioned values I suppose as my brother was allowed to be a paper boy and then get a bit more of a job.

YABU

We need educated workers

Do we though? Jobs done by educated people are very easily "exported" and there's no economy in the world that needs 50% of it's workforce to be graduates or indeed can absorb that.

China is producing 7 million graduates each year. The creme de la creme go to work for investment banks/ law firms etc. However, many of them end up unemployed. Meanwhile there's a shortage of skilled tradespeople in many regions because everyone has jumped on the "Uni is best. Graduates earn more." bandwagon (nice to see they've learned from our mistakes ).

I agree that manufacturing is dead (ish) but I'm not convinced that pumping out millions of graduates, many of whom are not hugely academic, is the way forward either. When i worked in investment banking, half the PA's had degrees. What's the point in that?

I think that the point is we need a skilled workforce. If the same workers can be found more cheaply elsewhere then having a higher level of skill is the only way to compete so that jobs are not exported (i a number of industries those jobs are being brought back because out sourcing doesn't always work terribly well). whether or not university is the right route for so many is another matter.

I certianly would have preferred to graduate when my parents did - only 10% went to university, and my father had six very good job offers immediately after he gradated (even though he only got a third in classics). I graduated in the early 90's applied for shed loads of jobs and didn't get anything for months, whilst dh got a temporary job as a dustman.

I don't think that him being a paperboy or me babysitting as teenagers helped us get any later opportunities!

Not sure Nooka. When reviewing CVs from grad applicants I particularly like the work experience section. I'm not that bothered about the nature of the job (work placements are great, but having done them myself, I know they are often pretty limited in scope- work shadowing I pretty much write-off) as I find lots of skills are transferable, especially soft skills. I'm always interested by people who have stuck out pretty crappy jobs because they've had to, and people who have had a lot of interaction with the public- bar work, shop work, care work etc.

In another recruiting process, someone who was an ex-heroin addict once gave me a very rconvincing explanation about how his negotiating skills had been honed by years of haggling with dealers

I agree re the attitude! I had one assistant, who said to me "I didn't get my first class honours degree from a RG university to do the photocopying." I asked her what job she thought she was applying for, as the job ad clearly said "admin assistant". Same little charmer pranced into head honcho and said she didn't want to work for me (she was recruited as my assistant) "as Mrs Schadenfreude only has two A levels and I have a first class honours degree from a RG university, I don't really think she can teach me anything." Head honcho growled "Mrs S has 25 years experience of managing a team. And if you're very lucky, she'll teach you some manners."

I would choose someone who has worked a bit during their time at uni over someone who hasn't, or who has only done a couple of internships. If they've had a stint at McDonald's or as a care assistant in an old people's home, then I know they're going to be a grafter and not afraid of hard work.

We recently recruited an economist (with a commensurately high salary) and had an email from one applicant, who didn't make the sift, who said "Hellooo? I think there is some mistake - you don't appear to have invited me to interview. Did you not read my application properly? I have a double first from Cambridge, and would be able to do this job standing on my head, so I think you have made a real mistake here." Which was nice. I wrote back and said that there had been no mistake, and the successful candidate also had a first from Cambridge, and also an MSc from LSE and had worked for five years in a relevant field. So she sort of had the edge over someone who has never worked.

I worked from the age of 13, and when I was in the sixth form, I was earning more than friends who had left school. I had a cleaning job, taught French and German privately and posed for an art class. The language teaching paid me a fiver an hour i (in 1982-83) and the art class around seven pounds an hour. Yes, it probably affected my grades, but I managed to blag my way onto a graduate scheme with my two crappy A levels, and my career has more than kept pace with my friends who went to uni. I don't think "degree" automatically assumes "huge intelligence" or ability to do a good job.

at Mrs S's examples! That's not a problem of lack of skills, just of lack of humility and manners!

I 100% agree with the OP & others saying that children must have the opportunity to work, to give them a grounding for the future.
I am now in classes at uni with 21 and 22 year olds who have NEVER worked, but who are expecting to walk into jobs after uni, I'm sure some of them will but A) How short sighted are the parents to fund the nights out, clothes & holidays of a legal adult?!
B) What on earth do their CVs look like, I often wonder and
C) When they do get jobs it's going to be a horrible shock to the system for them as individuals.
I've never worked a fantastic job, but having worked in a supermarket before going back to uni, and then working 2-3 jobs during uni, at least my CV shows I've got some staying power and I'm not afraid of a bit of hard work.
I realise laws on child employment have changed since I was that age, but even volunteering in a charity shop/a befriending scheme would demonstrate an affinity with people and a willingness to work surely?

Oh also, on a recent visit to the job centre with DP, I unfortunately overheard a 16 year-old being coached through his first signing on by his mother. He had done 4 months working in a warehouse and so was refusing to even look at anything else. The guy asked him if he would consider cleaning or shop work and he and his mother snorted and he said no, he would never do cleaning and he "hates customers".. I shit you not.
(I know I know, naughty diamonds for earwigging but they were right next to me)
I had to get up, stalk out and was offered a fag by a bloke standing outside with a can at 11am because I looked "het up". This is while my recently laid-off lecturer DP (and many other people in that place) was telling his interviewer he would do ANYTHING to pay the bills.

The reason I said I supported the expansion of higher education richman is for social justice and the good of the economy.

It is unfair that a university education should be limited to only those young people who come from the sort of families for whom a university education is traditional and seen as a right.

It is also wasteful. It doesn't make sense that a young person from a long line of university graduates is necessarily more suited to it and will be more productive and dedicated than a first-time entrant who has the correct academic qualifications and attitude.

We do need educated workers. By educated I mean not only graduates but people who have undertaken apprenticeships in a skilled trade or had some other form of training that equips them to do a job well.

I thought I made that clear when I said this: If we want good adult employees we must tell the Government and employers we expect them to provide opportunities and good training to all those millions of worthwhile young people trying to get a start. But perhaps not.