to think that a Bounty photo salesperson has no place on a post natal ward?

[Boboli]

Is this the norm nationwide? At our hospital, one of the first people you'll see after you've given birth is a photographer from Bounty who will give you a sales pitch for photos of your newborn. The photos are not cheap and I find it pretty incredible that mums are approached hours after given birth when they are likely not quite in the state of mind to decide on pricy photo packages.

My SIL had the pleasure of this Bounty lady an hour after reaching the post natal ward in the morning having been in labour all night. She had to specifically insist that she did not want her baby woken and photographed.

When had DD1, no-one except birth partners were allowed on the wards because of the swine flu outbreak yet the Bounty lady made it through. In other words, she was allowed to my bedside but my mum wasn't. This can't be right, can it?

HMRC administer Child Benefit, not DWP Pengo. I absolutely think that they should be contacted as part of any campaign. Businesses should certainly not have access to claim forms as one of their selling points, or be misleading people that buying from them is the only way to access them.

PestoPenguin Sat 17-Mar-12 15:44:07
If the Department of Health said the NHS shouldn't do this, then hospitals would have to stop.

Pesto, my point is that the DoH don't have to say anything, if you can prove that that what Bounty are doing actually breaks the law. Which it does. Very clearly.

Under the rules I posted before you can be prosecuted for a number of the tactics Bounty are using, and certainly their presence in a post-natal ward just isn't legal if you look at the examples and wording of aggressive practises.

If people started properly reporting their experiences then the Office of Fair Trading would be forced to look into the matter. It then takes it completely out of the hands of the DoH and individual hospitals.

And to be honest it does look like a clear case of abuse. Look at the examples for 8.11. What Bounty are doing very obviously falls into taking advantage of (a)Timing, location, nature or persistence & (c)The exploitation by the trader of any specific misfortune, or circumstance, of such gravity as to impair the consumer?s judgement, of which the trader is aware, to influence the consumer?s decision with regard to the product. And thats BEFORE you add in the misleading stuff detailed on this thread.

They need the book throwing at them, just as much as a MN campaign.

My bounty lady was lovely she was there a few hours post birth but my best friend was already there with his snazzy equipment and she instead had a chat with him about his equipment then left never offered me the photos. I was shocked to see the price of them. My friend was the sort who would pay £50 for a bottle of air if they told her it was special air for babies and she got the biggest package and it was shite. Definitely think there should be stricter rules. I did watch her with other women and the "script" could have beeb upsetting if there was a problem

I get the gist of what you're saying Thinkingaboutit, but I'm not lawyer and would struggle to write a letter of complaint from those regs without half a day of deep contemplation. Any tips?

Patients in hospital are a captive audience who can't get away. They are also vulnerable, especially those who have just given birth and may be physically and emotionally impaired. And because they may be sleep-deprived are do not necessarily have the same capacity as an average person to make good decisions. I think all this is relevant? I struggle a bit from the Bounty rep side... is it that they carry a badge and look official? Can you explain more about how they are breaking the rules even without many of the shocking examples taking place?

I went straight home after the birth so never got up on the ward -think I swerved the bounty bitch! But I got a bounty bag - a free nappy some nipple cream and a million leaflets -sales sales sales!

You've got exactly the right idea. Pesto.

You have a captive audience who are in a vulnerable state of mind and this WILL influence any decision they make. There are posters who have said exactly that on this thread. And its not unreasonable to say that this would be representative of the average woman.

Its not a normal situation (location and timing are deemed important factors according to unfair practices) and women in a post-natal ward are deemed vulnerable for a number of reasons - security is there for protection of both women and babies for starters which Bounty are well aware of.

Its not unreasonable to say that they might be under the impression that anyone on a ward outside visiting hours (or indeed within visiting hours given restrictions on visitors) is there on a official level and therefore has a position of power and authority. (Its an exploitation of circumstances/location and creates an imbalance of power in the process again something that is not acceptable for fair trading). Indeed the fact that hospitals give permission and access for this, in itself is questionable for this reason. It gives them extra authority.

I do think it is massively important to draw attention to this.

I don't think wording of a letter needs to be technical. All anyone needs to say is that they were in a state where they felt extremely vulnerable given the circumstance. They were in hospital for medical reasons which makes them less able to give an informed decision which they may have done under any other circumstances and that they felt pressured or otherwise influenced because Bounty had free, unfettered access to them on a par with medical professionals which no one else has.

I have no legal background, but I don't think you really need to, to be able to see there is a problem here. The guidelines are technical and not easy to understand easily, but they aren't full of legal jargon either. All it needs is for it to be clearly outlined and women to be aware of law for them to make a complaint. At the moment, if women complain, my guess it would be to the hospital who has a vested financial interest in maintaining the status quo. Make people aware of who they should be complaining to AND WHY and you are more likely to get action.

Could someone perhaps draft a generic letter here that includes the information thinkingaboutit gave and that could be customised and sent to complain about these issues?

Could someone also explain and maybe do a link to how to complain as well? I looked at the OFT website, which seemed to send me to consumer direct re complaints, and from there I couldn't make head nor tail of it .

If you put it in your notes that they were NOT to be allowed access to you, or even made a sign saying 'No Bounty, thanks' & blu-tacked it to the fishtank thingy they put the baby in - would that oblige them to avoid you?

Not that women should have to faff around with any of that, but if you did, would it (apart from maybe making NHS staff/other new mothers aware that actually some people do find it objectionable) add anything to a subsequent complaint?

Quick question, when the Bounty Lady comes to your bedside, does she have any personal information on you at that point?

In other words have hospital staff given them your surname or initials?

I don't think so Betty, but the names are written up on a huge board which she and anyone else can see, so she could work this out?

ravenAK I have no idea of the answers to your question, but why on earth should a hospital patient have to go to these lengths to avoid being visited by a salesperson???

ravenAK I have no idea of the answers to your question, but why on earth should a hospital patient have to go to these lengths to avoid being visited by a salesperson???

More to the point - does an average woman going into hospital to have a baby have the necessary awareness to put up such a sign? And given the circumstances and timing would she have ability, time and wits about her to do so? If not then its a breech of fair trading regs. (I think the answer to these questions would be a no btw).

And yes Pesto, I had the same problem with their website. I'll try and look into it more today if I get chance. I was thinking if this is a consumer rights issue (which it appears to be) it might also be worth trying to get a certain television programme with experience in this field involved in some way.

This is from the BBC's watchdog website:
Consumer law has its roots in laws regulating trade that date back centuries. But virtually all law that matters to consumers today has been introduced since the 1970s.
There are about a dozen significant acts and many more regulations, but fortunately most of these can be safely left to solicitors. In fact, it's questionable whether consumers actually need to know any law at all.
It's a pretty useful strategy to use your common sense to judge whether or not a trader is in the right or wrong.
When something isn't right, simply ask yourself (or better ask your family or friends) what is reasonable to expect and do. Most consumer law and its interpretation in the courts is based on a 'reasonableness' test. So most of the time you'll be absolutely right, but not always. Consumer law in Britain does sometimes give us more rights than our common sense might lead us to believe - and that's worth knowing about.

So the courts rule on a 'reasonableness test' which is great seeming as the overwhelming answer on a AIBU thread is 'No' in this case. Sounds like its definitely a case for Consumer Law.

Again from the BBC Watchdog site:
If a trader breaks a criminal consumer law, he or she can be investigated by the appropriate law enforcement agency, usually Trading Standards. He or she may end up in a criminal court (magistrates or crown courts) where, if found guilty, they can be fined or even imprisoned. But the burden of proof in criminal law is stricter: a trader has to be proved guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'. In the civil courts, decisions are made on the 'balance of probabilities'.
The most important criminal consumer law is The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. This makes it a criminal offence to apply a false trade description to goods, or otherwise to supply goods which have been falsely described. It applies to any description a trader might make; it could be an advert or on a sign or label, in a shop window or a verbal description from a sales assistant.
The act also applies to services, but here an offence is only committed if a description is 'reckless' as well as false.
If you suspect a trader of a false description, contact your local council's Trading Standards department. Like many criminal consumer laws, legal action must be taken within three years of the offence. Every year, many traders are prosecuted under this act. Most are fined and a few are sent to prison.
In addition, the General Product Safety Regulations (2005) imposes a duty on all producers and distributors of goods to ensure that their products are safe - failure to comply can be a criminal offence. Finally the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations (2008) makes it an offence for traders to treat consumers unfairly through misleading actions, misleading omissions or aggressive practices.

So the way to complain seems to be primary through your local Trading Standards office. There is a link on the Office of Fair Trade website for a postcode search. I did click through to my local one and again their website was crap and it was unfair how you complain. My feeling is starting to be that it might need to be a case of someone going through and finding a list of contact details so anyone who wants to complain on here can find the details more easily.

Alternatively, Consumer Direct have an advice line too.

There does also seem to be a general email address for the OFT to report traders. But I'm thinking perhaps waiting for another response from MNHQ might be appropriate now first.

Having looked through all this and realising how difficult and unclear it is to take up a complaint in this way, it doesn't surprise me that it seems no one has challenged Bounty before about their practices. When I first looked at this I was really surprised the NCT hadn't look at this as an option. I'm beginning to see why.

I really very strongly believe there is a very strong case against Bounty here, that they would find very difficult to challenge if they were investigated by Trading Standards/Office of Fair Trade. Its getting the case in front of them and getting people to go through the complaints process that I think is going to be the difficult part. If MNHQ could take the led in someway, I think it would make it a lot easier and definitely achievable if some of the people on this thread were prepared to actively back it.

(Sorry for the long post!)

There is a link on the Office of Fair Trade website for a postcode search. I did click through to my local one and again their website was crap and it was unclear* how you complain

Unclear not unfair.

Does everywhere have them? I've never seen them - I think if I did I'd want to toe-punt her out of the ward

Laambkins. There is a list on their website. They apparently operate out of 'nearly 100 maternity units' according to that.

Not sure how many there in the UK in total, but it must be pushing 20-25% of all units nationally.

"ravenAK I have no idea of the answers to your question, but why on earth should a hospital patient have to go to these lengths to avoid being visited by a salesperson???"

To this I would say that they shouldn't have to...but if the hospital allows the Bounty lady access to the wards and doing this can hopefully guarantee that she leaves you alone, why not do it?

I said this once on a thread about unwanted callers. A debate was going on along the lines of "why should I put a sign up to say don't call...people should put signs up saying 'do call' instead so they only go to those houses" and although I agree that nobody should have to suffer repeated, unwanted visits I do wonder why the people who get so upset at just the thought of them refuse to do something proactive to help themselves and stop it.

The attitude of "I don't want to do something that would benefit me because why should I have to?" baffles me.

Although in the case of new parents on a maternity ward, fending off the Bounty lady is probably the last thing on their minds and the hospitals who allow them on the wards should take greater care of the patients to ensure they are not harassed or upset.

Perhaps a "No Bounty Lady" sign should be recommended on every thread where people ask "what should I take to the hospital?" It might also make it clear to the hospitals who allow this that the patients do not want it, without the parents having to draft a complaints letter while dealing with a newborn during their first days at home.

RavenAK: love the term 'fich tank thing'

I haven't read every single post, but just wanted to say that I fully agree that this practice is disgraceful. I would be keen to support any kind of generic letter / petition. Maybe a petition to Bounty themselves would make some difference if they realised strength of feeling.
The sign option is a very good idea, but I think it should be done the opposite way - They can only approach you if you have a sign up to say you DO wish them to speak to you?
It really annoyed me when they came over with the sales pitch, and gave you the impression you were crazy for not taking them up on their rip off photos. Then approached me again shortly after because I'd been moved, and she was so observant she didn't know she was speaking to the same person twice... Even my Mum had difficulty getting in to see me as I was moved to the ward AFTER she had left to bring things in to me, and I had previously not been restricted by same visiting rules as the ward, but the Bounty woman has free sodding access. Over tired and irritable women must give them some fantastic responses though, they must have been sent away with a flea in their ear more than once.

fish*

I have never heard of the bounty lady, I am appalled at some of the stories!
I am going to give birth in the UK in 8 weeks. I will include a note in my labour bag. Thanks for the heads up!

Cannot believe this thread, I actually took dd2 back to hospital twice to make sure I got the photos, they don't stay looking like newborns for long! Lots of people on my ward weren't bothered (just said no) but the lady who took the photos was great. Think in 2006 the whole package was £30 wehich seemed reasonable to me.

I got my Bounty pack from Boots - icluding the child benefit forms. You don't have to take the hospital ones. This was 8 years ago though. Not sure if Boots still do them?

RedHelenB would your experience have been ruined by the Bounty lady being the day room for you to visit or to be collected to visit you?

I appreciate some people like the photos they have received but lots more dislike the intrusion placed upon them at a vunerable time.

here's the list of maternity units that participate in the Bounty portrait scheme

The one I'm due to give birth at in a couple of weeks is on that list - and now I have another thing to worry about.. avoiding the Bounty reps :(