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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to think that a Bounty photo salesperson has no place on a post natal ward?

283 replies

Boboli · 14/03/2012 21:33

Is this the norm nationwide? At our hospital, one of the first people you'll see after you've given birth is a photographer from Bounty who will give you a sales pitch for photos of your newborn. The photos are not cheap and I find it pretty incredible that mums are approached hours after given birth when they are likely not quite in the state of mind to decide on pricy photo packages.

My SIL had the pleasure of this Bounty lady an hour after reaching the post natal ward in the morning having been in labour all night. She had to specifically insist that she did not want her baby woken and photographed.

When had DD1, no-one except birth partners were allowed on the wards because of the swine flu outbreak yet the Bounty lady made it through. In other words, she was allowed to my bedside but my mum wasn't. This can't be right, can it?

OP posts:
picnicbasketcase · 16/03/2012 14:22

Totally agree that minutes/hours after birth is not the best time for possibly tired out, hormonal, emotional etc people to make decisions... but on the other hand I did buy DD's pictures and had two framed and gave them to my DM and DMIL for Christmas. They were a nice thing to have. Overpriced though.

kenhallroad · 16/03/2012 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pandemoniaa · 16/03/2012 14:52

Completely astounded at the outfits similar to the mws and 'security' photo lie, surely that's against some sort of regulations .

It's yet more evidence that these people are not what I'd describe as professional photographers (and being one I do know a little of what I speak) because anyone who has reputable credentials will almost certainly be working to a code of conduct. In my case, as a press snapper, it is the NUJ.

However, having checked the Bounty site for more information, it is as I suspected. Applicants are not actually required to be any sort of photographer, instead they are expected to have "an eye for detail". Bounty do mention training and possible future membership of the Master Photographers Association after said training and the MPA does have a code of conduct. The second paragraph of which states that a member will "conduct themselves so as to uphold the reputation of the Association and with it the spirit and dignity of the profession as a whole". Badgering women at such a vulnerable time and misrepresenting the service they offer does not strike me as upholding any sort of dignity whatsoever. So it might be interesting to discover how many members of the MPA are letting their own Association down.

In reality, these are sales people with cameras. They give the world of real professional photographers a very bad name.

SootySweepandSue · 16/03/2012 14:56

Yes she was my first visit aswell. I told her where to go. Problem was I said the same thing almost to the next lady who was here to do the hearing test! I was in the 'tell everyone to eff off' mode...

It is an invasion of privacy. 1000000x worse than cold calling or door or door.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 16/03/2012 16:03

Why do you need to start a campaign or an epetition if bounty saleswomen are doing half the things on the thread?

This is a link to Guidance on Consumer Fair Trading 2008 pdf

It would seem that Bounty are breaking a few rules here.

Most specifically ones relating to misleading actions, ommisions and aggressive practices.

Apologies for the length of this post, but I think its important to post some of the possible breeches that seem to be pretty regular if this thread is anything to go for, and perhaps the angle that people should be taking to get rid of Bounty from post-natal wards.

Please note, that the key they highlight in bold is average customer

Misleading Actions (regulation 5)
Giving false information to, or deceiving, customers
7.3 A misleading action occurs when a practice misleads through the information it contains, or its deceptive presentation, and causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a different decision.
7.4 For instance,if a trader falsely tells a consumer that his boiler cannot be repaired and he will need a new one, he will have committed a misleading action.
7.5 The CPRs specify three types of misleading actions:
? misleading information generally (see 7.6)
? creating confusion with competitors? products
? failing to honour firm and verifiable commitments made in a code of conduct
7.6 These are actions that mislead by:
? containing false information OR deceiving or being likely to deceive the average consumer (even if the information they contain is factually correct),
and
? the false information, or deception, relates to one or more pieces of information in a (wide-ranging) list (see below),
and
? the average consumer takes, or is likely to take, a different decision as a result.

Misleading Omissions (regulation 6)
Giving insufficient information about the product
7.12 Practices may also mislead by failing to give consumers the information they need to make an informed choice (in relation to a product).This occurs when practices:
? omit or hide material information, or provide it in an unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous or untimely manner,
and
? the average consumer takes, or is likely to take, a different decision as a result.
7.13 A misleading omission can also occur where a trader fails to identify the commercial intent of a practice, if it is not already apparent from the context. The presence of a price, or of a statement making it clear that the practice is commercial (for example: ?this is an advertisement?), are examples of how commercial intent could be made clear.

Prohibition on aggressive practices
8.2 The CPRs prohibit commercial practices which
? by harassment, coercion (including physical force) or
undue influence,
? significantly impair, or are likely to significantly impair, the average consumer?s freedom of choice or conduct concerning the product,
and
? The average consumer takes, or is likely to take, a different decision as a result
These elements are described below.

Harassment, Coercion and Undue Influence
8.3 Harassment and coercion are not expressly defined in the CPRs but include both physical and non-physical, (including psychological) pressure.
8.4 Undue influence is defined in regulation 7(3)(b) of the CPRs as:
?exploiting a position of power in relation to the consumer so as to apply pressure, even without using or threatening to use physical force, in a way which significantly limits the consumer?s ability to make an informed decision?.

An example of this might be a mechanic who has a consumer?s car at his garage and has done more work than agreed, and who refuses to return the car to the consumer until he is paid in full for the work. The mechanic did not check with the consumer before he went ahead with the extra work. As he has the car, he has power over the consumer?s decision to pay for the unauthorised work. He has exploited his position of power, by demanding payment for doing more than was agreed and refusing to return the vehicle until the consumer has paid for all the work.

Significant Impairment or Limitation
8.5 The CPRs refer to practices that ?significantly impair? and those that ?significantly limit? decisions (the latter is in the definition of undue influence).These are likely to have a very similar meaning and both will depend on the context.
8.6 Significant impairment might occur when, for example, a trader stays in a consumer?s home for so long that they feel compelled to sign a contract for a product.

Freedom of Choice or Conduct
8.7 The concept of freedom of choice is not limited solely to decisions about whether to purchase a product or not. It covers a wide range of choices that are likely to impact on transactional decisions.
8.8 For example, coercion might cause consumers to purchase the product at a much higher price or on disadvantageous terms. Breaches of the CPRs could occur even if:
? consumers might still have bought the product from the same trader, but on different terms
? consumers might still have bought the product, but from a different trader.

Factors indicating an aggressive practice
8.9 The CPRs list factors which shall be taken into account when determining whether a commercial practice is aggressive. It is not necessary for all of these factors to be present for a practice to be aggressive and therefore unfair (provided that the commercial practice uses harassment, coercion or undue influence).
8.10 The factors are: (a)Timing, location, nature or persistence, (b) The use of threatening or abusive language or behaviour,
(c)The exploitation by the trader of any specific misfortune, or circumstance, of such gravity as to impair the consumer?s judgement, of which the trader is aware, to influence the consumer?s decision with regard to the product,
(d) Any onerous or disproportionate non-contractual barriers imposed by the trader where a consumer wishes to exercise rights under the contract, including rights to terminate a contract or switch to another product or trader,
(e) Any threat to take any action that cannot legally be taken.

Possible aggressive practices
8.11 The examples below assume that the average consumer would or would be likely to take a different decision as a result of the practice(s) described.

Staff working in a funeral parlour put pressure on a recently bereaved relative, who is deciding on a coffin, to buy a more expensive coffin to avoid bringing shame on the family. This could amount to coercion or undue influence. (Exploitation of specific misfortune, and timing)

A trader takes consumers to a holiday club presentation at a distant location, with no apparent return transport unless the consumers sign a contract. This could amount to coercion and/or undue influence. (Nature / location)

A doorstep trader pressures a consumer to pay in cash for home repairs immediately. He insists on giving the consumer a lift to the bank to withdraw the money. This could amount to coercion or undue influence. (Nature, persistence, location)

A debt collector pressurises existing borrowers/debtors to repay a debt, for example, by contacting debtors at unreasonable times (such as late at night) or at unreasonable locations (such as at work when they have been requested not to). This could amount to harassment, coercion or undue influence. (Timing, persistence, nature and location, exploitation of circumstances ? this might amount to exploitation of the imbalance of power between the creditor and debtor, as well as of the specific circumstances of the debtor)

A debt collector threatens consumers with recovery of money by bailiffs for unenforceable debts. This could amount to harassment, coercion or undue influence. (Exploitation of circumstances and threat to take action which cannot legally be taken)

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 16/03/2012 16:05

Short version of the above.

There is no fucking way that Bounty Sales can be on a post-natal ward and NOT be in breech of these rules.

Even if you haven't been sold them and said now, you clearly have a case to take it up with consumer watchdogs over their practices. Hospitals who are allowing this to happen could also find themselves in hot water I would imagine...

penguinsoup · 16/03/2012 16:35

Thanks for all the information on here.

Oh dear, I hope bounty woman stays well away from me when I am in hospital with DC1.

I don't react well to pushy sales people...
Manys a chugger has borne the brunt of my anger.

misslinnet · 16/03/2012 16:43

YANBU.

DS was 6 weeks early and taken straight to neo-natal after birth. The lovely midwives at the hospital put me in a single room on the post-natal ward in case being in a shared room with healthy full-term babies upset me.

The Bounty woman barged into the room, without knocking, shortly after I got there and shrieked 'Where's the baby?!'

Really not what I needed Angry

MichaelaS · 16/03/2012 17:26

MNHQ please please please can we have an awareness campaign - perhaps something on the pregnancy section of MN and a press release?

I'm all ready to fight the Bounty woman if she bothers me next month whilst i'm having DS2, but surely the hospitals must already get millions of complaints. We need to know who sets the policy allownig them in (hospitals, trusts, nationally?) and complain to THEM.

I'm going to post this twice and report one in the hopes of attracting MNHQ! :grin:

MichaelaS · 16/03/2012 17:26

MNHQ please please please can we have an awareness campaign - perhaps something on the pregnancy section of MN and a press release?

I'm all ready to fight the Bounty woman if she bothers me next month whilst i'm having DS2, but surely the hospitals must already get millions of complaints. We need to know who sets the policy allownig them in (hospitals, trusts, nationally?) and complain to THEM.

I'm going to post this twice and report one in the hopes of attracting MNHQ! :grin:

OliviaMumsnet · 16/03/2012 19:03

Hello
Good evening and many thanks for the reports about this.

Just wanted to let you all know that we have seen this but not sure we can do much about it until after the weekend.
Am sure you'll understand that this is the kind of thing that we need to look into properly and give proper thought to.
But please be assured we have seen it and will let you know if we can help
THanks
M Towers

PigletJohn · 16/03/2012 19:29

MichaelaS surely the hospitals must already get millions of complaints

You'd think that, but none of the people on here seem to have made an official, written complaint, so far as I can see Confused

MichaelaS · 16/03/2012 19:35

Thanks MNHQ

PigletJohn true - maybe raising awareness of the fact this is a commercial organisation and not a required part of the NHS offering might encourage more complaints though!

i'm all ready to write one now and i'm not even near the labour ward......

FilterCoffee · 16/03/2012 19:40

Great there might be a campaign - thanks MNHQ!

(and personally I'd much rather support a MN campaign than an NCT one as I'm no fan of theirs)

Nux · 16/03/2012 21:03

Just another voice of agreement here - I took the stuff when DD was born - too hazed out to even remember the exchange after a 3rd degree tear and nearly losing DD - but when DS was born I told her I didn't want it and to go away. She waltzed into my bed area and read all my cards Shock Angry and told me I needed the bag of crap because it had the CB form in it - I told her I'd do it online and to leave me alone. Didn't stop her trying again twice. Invasive and unwelcome, makes me furious - and some of the stories on here! My God! I would definitely support a campaign.

NorfolkNChance · 16/03/2012 21:06

Thanks Olivia

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 16/03/2012 21:46

Perhaps we should have a think about who sponsor Bounty Portrait...

PAMPERS!

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 16/03/2012 21:57

My DH works in security and internet type stuff. He's very familiar with privacy policy.

I've told him about this thread and he went WTF. So he went to their website to look at their privacy policy.

It basically said, in my DH's shorthand "We are not responsible for fucking anything. We will sell you to anyone"

He says he has NEVER seen anything like it. That's compared to all the dubious privacy policies that are well publicised (eg the likes of FB and google). He was shocked and said "its an absolute disgrace".

He was suggesting to look at their t&cs and to use that to hammer their sponsors about what they are up to. (Asda & Proctor and Gamble in addition to Pamper apparently).

DrLynds · 16/03/2012 23:22

When I was working as a junior doctor on the neonatal team I was called to see a baby as they were unwell. I stood behind the curtain and called out gently "knock knock, it's the doctor", got the Bounty Lady storm out and say "I'm taking photos, be done in a bit". As I was a timid junior I politely waited, however it then transpired that the baby was jaundiced and dehydrated. Overpriced pictures were more important that this child's health which is terrible. I have learnt my lesson and now kick the Bounty Lady out asap!

AwkwardMary · 17/03/2012 01:17

Oh great to hear MNHQ are looking further into having a campaign about this! The tales on here are horrendous!

I know what will happen though...I mean the glass half empty part of me does...

Bounty will say "Ooh that's awful! We will make sure our staff are better trained in dealing with women who have had difficult births..." and then they'll carry on regardless....

the NHS will say "Yes but if you have complaints then do speak to the relevant department and lodge it officially...we do find that MANY new parents are THRILLED with the info they get from the experts at Bounty"

And then things will just carry on....

What I would like to see is that BOUNTY are not allowed in maternity wings at ALL! NOT ON THE WARDS AND NOT IN THE WAITING ROOMS.

THey could tout their crap at other places if they like...maybe baby clinics would be better? The parents there are usually (not always) less traumatized and let's be frank here, traumatized women are not fair game for promotions are they?

AwkwardMary · 17/03/2012 01:21

Can I suggest to all the posters who are now worried about being bothered by Bounty when they go to have their babies, to speak to the ward sister beforehand or put it in your birth plan that you do not want any Bounty reps to come near you or your child and that if they do you will sue arses.

You have a right to a peaceful birth and a peaceful recovery without strangers intruding on you and your newborn....

cjdamoo · 17/03/2012 02:06

Bounty is not endorsed by my local hospitals here in Australia. You can acsess the "packs" by asking for one at the Chemist but they are not routinely handed out. Wonderful.

PestoPenguin · 17/03/2012 15:44

If the Department of Health said the NHS shouldn't do this, then hospitals would have to stop. Equally, local hospitals could stop it now if they so chose.

The Dept of Work and Pensions could stop collaborating with Bounty by stopping them distributing child benefit forms. Health Visitors could do this instead at the first postnatal visit, when everyone's at home and usually slightly more with it. The forms could also be made widely available in Register Offices (which also should not give out promotional crap with birth certificates, as some do). These two routes would easily cover all those without internet access.

I do not think maternity wards are an appropriate place for business promotion and selling at all, ever. The NHS managers responsible should be ashamed.

BettySuarez · 17/03/2012 20:54

I contributed to this thread when it first started but had no idea that it had progressed to this level. I'm glad it has though!

My original post was quite brief but I would like to add a more detailed account now

I was in hospital following delivery of my twin dd's via c section

Very traumatic pregnancy, various concerns about one of our daughters and c section not that straightforward. DH was allowed to stay with me for first 24 hours and managed to fend of the Bounty Lady (which he gad to do several times)

He was then restricted to visiting times so I was left to fend myself. The Bounty Lady knocked on several occasions and wouldn't take no for an answer. I was utterly exhausted, trying to manage breastfeeding and coping with my scar and anemia. I could only manage to feed one baby at a time in hospital so the whole feeding\winding\changing\settling process would take an age because I would have to hobble around trying to care for one DD and then care for the next.

If I was lucky, I would manage approx half an hours sleep before the whole process started again.

I BEGGED the nurses to make sure i wasn't disturbed by the Bounty Lady but she kept knocking and letting herself into my room. I remember trying to get some sleep but feeling so anxious waiting for that knock on the door that I couldn't relax enough.

On one occasion I was so exhausted and weak that I collapsed to the floor while DD 2 was being winded against my shoulder. Neither of us were hurt thank god but the memory of it still hurts me.

In the end I discharged myself and my daughters home early against medical advice. I'm not suggesting that this was all the fault of the bounty lady but her presence felt like such an intrusion at a time when I felt very vulnerable.

I was a lot younger then of course and I would find it a lot easier to deal with the situation now (she wouldn't stand a bloody chance) but I am shocked that 16 years on, new mums are still being hounded in this way.

Bounty exist purely for the purpose of collecting and then selling data ( email and addresses) which they then sell on to companies that need to Market to the under 5's Market.

I would support a Mumsnet campaign

jellybeans · 17/03/2012 21:43

I think they should be allowed but shouldn't be pushy and keep a distance if they are clearly not wanted. Maybe there could be some way of signalling who would like their services and who wouldn't. I treasure my newborn pics and enjoyed reading the books etc. in hospital so have no issues with them.