To have issue with the idea of assisted suicide?

[wannaBe]

The high court is to hear the appeal of a man who wants doctors to be allowed to help him die. He had a stroke and has locked-in syndrome which basically means that he is of sound mind but his poly is completely paralyzed.

I understand his desire to want to die, I really do. But I still have massive issue with the idea that a court might actually grant permission for doctors to essentially be allowed to kill him. And you can call it assisted suicide, but the doctors will need to administer whatever medication would be required in order for him to die.

Suicide in the UK is illegal. If this man were able to kill himself, where possible, he would be prevented from doing so.

If someone attempts suicide and fails then every step has to be taken to try to save them, even though the knowledge is there that death is what they want.

So on the one hand we have a law that says that if you try to kill yourself and fail you will be saved, or if we believe you are suicidal we will take steps to prevent you from carrying out a suicide, yet on the other we have people arguing for the right to be killed in the name of suicide.

It's a blatant double standard and really doesn't sit well with me.

Sorry I see that has already been raised on the thread, apols for repeating over people's personal stories.

This case has got me so upset. Put yourself in this man's situation. Try to imagine living like that for even a day. How can anyone think that he should not be able to choose to end it when he wants to?

BobMarley so sorry about your dad.

You mention the dose of morphine, excuse my ignorance is that a common course of action d'you know. I hope that my question isn't offensive.

If you let a dig live in the way we insist some humans live you would be arrested for animal cruelty.

There should be a right to die.

the practice of using sufficient morphine to ease the pain which is also sufficient to end the patient's life does sometimes occur but it places the doctors in a very precarious position legally and they are reliant on the complicity of the relatives and the nursing staff not to end up in court. My ex FIL is a consultant in medicine for the elderly and had to deal with this sort of thing on an almost daily basis. Unfortunately the more common ending was that the patient could and did refuse treatment (including food) and died more slowly as the only legal option available. how anyone could suggest that that is preferable to assisted suicide or assisted dying I will never know.

Isn't one of the issues in this case that an act of parliament would be required to change the law on assisted suicide?

my dad was paralysed - not as bad at that man - DF could still move his head, speak(ish), but pretty much the rest either didnt move or moved by itself & he used to sustain injuries.

its not as simple as saying you can go to Switerland if you are paralysed: my dad would not have been able to hold a breaker to drink from it or push a button etc. so not permitted under swiss law.

i think that mans family are very brave. i completely support someones right to not be alive when life is not worth living on their own terms, but my reaction for myself was hurt that my dad wanted to leave us sooner than he was going to anyway.

my dad wanted me to buy tablets from the internet & help him end his life. i refused because i would have to live with it the rest of my life. so my dad refused a feeding tube & kept on eating even though he could not swallow water or food. this meant he got pneumonia & that killed him.

it was one of those topics which before i experienced it i thought i has an opinion on, when i was actually in it, previous thoughts were just theory: i realised the realities of killing someone else is very different than killing yourself: kill yourself & you dont have to live with it, kill someone else & you do.

For those who are concerned about people being coerced into ending their lives wasn't Sir Terry Pratchett's idea that you would need to satisfy a team consisting of a Medical Doctor, a Psychiatrist, a Lawyer and I think he suggested two peers from outside those professions that you were of sound mind, fully understand your medical options and are not being coerced before you can go ahead.

I do understand why people worry, I have my own discomfort at the idea, but rationally I believe that or something similar is the right way to go.

EnjoyResponsibly - I'm no lawyer and I was a teenager when the people I knew in my home country (my best friend's father and a very dear, close friend of my parents who I had known as 'auntie' all my life) went through this so I was not involved directly, but the way I understand it, the way it works is as follows. Euthanasia is legal, but only when the correct procedures are followed. A doctor who flouts procedure is committing murder or manslaughter, not euthanasia. The request must come from the person themselves, be well considered and completely voluntary, not under pressure from anyone and they must be judged to be of sound mind, understand their condition, their long-term treatment options and prognosis, and what will happen to them if they do or don't have treatment. They must be suffering unbearably and and without prospect of improvement, and patient and doctors must agree that there is no reasonable course of action to alleviate it. All these judgments must be made not only by the patient's own doctor, but also by a second, independent doctor who has examined the patient in person and given his opinion in writing. Only then may euthanasia be performed.

A doctor has the right to refuse to perform euthanasia or be involved in it, as do nurses, pharmacists, and other medical professionals who might be involved in the enactment of a wish of euthanasia. A doctor who refuses would usually refer such a patient elsewhere, though.

I appreciate that for some people, that would not be enough of a safeguard. Personally, I'm glad that this option exists, though. These people, who were very dear to me, suffered very badly (they both had cancer) and they had no chance of recovery. They would both have loved to go on living, and everyone who knew them would have moved heaven and earth to change the outcome, but it was not possible. Knowing they didn't have to keep suffering if it was too much helped them.

Op I do see where you're coming from. Presumably if someone in hospital, say, was threatening immediate suicide they would be prevented (restrained? Through a section?) No one would be saying its their right so don't stop them.

was listening the the news this morning and it isn't assisted suicide where he is able to take an overdose, for instance. He is completely paralyzed physically, so would have to have someone else effectively kill him.

I completely, 100% support assisted suicide. I feel so passionately about it.
I am certain that safeguards could be put in place which would mean that no one could be pressured into it. I think too that it would be completely reasonable for doctors to opt out of offering this service if it goes against their religion or personally makes them uncomfortable.

I have experienced extreme pain in my life. For long periods of time. When pain is bad enough, sometimes painkillers either don't touch it, or you get such horrendous side effects from them that it isn't worth taking them. I am fully aware of the fact that there may come a point in my lifetime (hopefully a long way away) when I will want to go down this route. I would actually physically be able to commit suicide and yet legalizing euthanasia is still critical to me because I would a)want my family present (any who could cope) so that I'm not alone and I don't want to worry about them being prosecuted for aiding me and b)I would want to be provided drugs by a doctor to ensure that I die peacefully. I could buy something off the internet now but have no clue that it is what it says it is, or that it's not going to cause me terrible suffering.

The suffering that some people go through right now is barbaric. I have heard so many people say that they have witnessed their parents die awful prolonged deaths and wish with all their heart they could have assisted them. We don't let animals suffer in this way, so how can we let people? I can only imagine that people who are against AS have never experienced severe, degrading pain.

of course he should have the right too die.

First of all, OP, you should be ashamed of your opening post, where you say that suicide is illegal. If you want to start a controversial and sensitive topic then get your bloody facts straight.

Secondly, are you completely compassion-free? Can you imagine how this man is living now? Do you realise he will always be like that? Do you really think it's fair to demand he lives in this way for decades?

I wish for his sake it hadn't come to this and that the doctors who are caring for him would be able to carry out his wishes. How dreadful that he's spent all this time desperate to die and having to battle with antiquated laws to get the peace he deserves.

I think he has a right to die, would YOU like to "live" (if you call it living) unable to move, talk or even swallow. Having people have to help you to the toilet and to eat. It must be horribly humiliating and distressing. I think that there should be some sort of system in place to stop random murder etc.. but that if someone asks you to help them die then it's perfectly fine that you do so.

Naoko, it sounds as though the legislators in your country have got this difficult matter as right as possible.

Most of the objections raised in the thread are dealt with (of course there have to be rigourous safeguards against coercion. Of course no medical professional would be obliged to act against their conscience in this matter (same as with abortion).

i am all for assisted suicide

what can be more pitiful and sad than desperately wanting to die because you quality of life is so poor yet you cannot do this yourself and have to go to court to fight for this

also to have a peaceful death is so important for that person and for the family left behind. seeing someone begging to die withdrawing from morphine because that is what is keeping them alive, the pain from that the pain from terminal cancer, the pain from all their organs shutting down is so so unnecessarily cruel it is the most disturbing thing i have had to witness, it is so undignified, its inhumane and death does not have to be like this. this poor man and his family have suffered enough, they all have the right to let him go in peace

the man in the news can blink & a computer reads his blinks, so he can communicate. i think he should able to trigger his own death using the computer.

EnjoyResponsibly I'm not sure whether it is common practice to overdose people with morphine in this way. I don't think so, as they had great trouble to get the morphine from different areas of the hospital as for safety procedures they do not have lethal doses in one area. This was not legal euthanesia and the doctor could probably be in great trouble if one of us had complained afterwards. However, we were all just very grateful that he was willing to put his neck on the line to give our dad a dignified death.

I don't mind you asking at all btw, it was over a decade ago and not in this country.

Naoko and Bob thank you for taking the time to provide answers to my questions. I have more thinking to do on this issue, but I would like to see a parliamentary debate on the matter I think as I agree with the many posters that have said that medicine has outstripped final days treatment in cases such as cancer.

I shall watch the proceedings of this case closely and hope very hard that this poor man and his family find peace.

My gran was an assisted suicide, in that she was provided with an overdose setup where she could press the switch herself. This was in the same country where I suspect naoko lives and where I am originally from - Rick Santorum had a go at it not so long ago.

My gran was entirely with it, she had at most a few months to live in unbearable pain with ever-increasing doses of morphine to rob her of her faculties - she said no. Many of the family were with her when she took her overdose, beforehand there were drinks and nibbles and she was allowed cigarettes (this was in a hospital). She had a manicure so that she could go with perfect nails and she had the opportunity to make her peace and say her goodbyes with her personality intact and untouched by drugs.

I think they largely have it right where I come from, when I am (much) older and the DCs are settled and independent I will certainly consider moving back there so that I can be in charge of my own death. It's another reason for me not to naturalise, actually.

That is indeed the same country, pointythings, through I'm actually in the UK now. Don't get me started on the Santorum incident, it gives me the stabby stabby rage...

When my grandfather became very ill and in excruciating pain, the care staff stopped giving him food or drink. He wouldn't have eaten it anyway, but were they not bound to get a doctor's opinion on whether he should have an NG tube? It took him four days to die after this was withheld. My Nan was there for all of it and she was in pieces. I'm not sure one way or the other how I feel about the care he received in this time. I'm also not sure how much attention he was given by the care home doctor as I never saw him.

What I do know is that my Grandad never stopped crying out in pain. He had some kind of patch on his skin which was meant to be a super strong painkiller but it was his fear more than anything which made his decline so agonizing.

I'm sure he would have wanted to die rather than go through that. What worries me though is that if assisted suicide was legal, at what point would the decision be carried out? If the person was also over a certain age, would it be just assumed that an illness wouldn't get better or recede back into a manageable state?

As for illnesses with no current cure, and for those whose illness would have deteriorated beyond the point where cure was possible by the time it was found, I believe the law should allow for some kind of contract between patient and doctor where assessments were made regularly to determine whether or not the patient is able to uphold his or her decision to end his or her life early. I think from this point onwards, all the patient's medical records should be made available to the relevant authority and/or solicitor.

I've made no mention of family wishes because I think they should have no involvement at all unless the patient expressly wishes for them to do so, and appoint only one member of family to be involved in the assessments, which of course should include the presence of the patient.

I also think the patient should have regular counselling sessions to rule out certain reasons for wanting to die, such as being a burden.

This is a hugely emotive topic and I'm firmly on the fence.

While I agree with everyone's comments that it should be a human right to have control and choice over your manner of death - and of course I don't want to see people suffering interminable agony while they wait to die - I personally couldn't bring myself to administer medication to a patient knowing that it would end their life and with the intention of doing so.

I don't know any doctor that would be able to.

We definitely need to improve end of life care so that more people are able to enjoy whatever span they have left - or at least not actively wish to cut it short.

This man has lost hope. Medical science at the moment can't do anything for that. But suppose he gets his wish - and 6 months later a breakthrough in neural regeneration means he might have regained some function?

Maybe assisted suicide under strictly controlled conditions should be something anyone has the option to choose - but I don't think you would need doctors. You'd have to train a group of executioners.

Thinking about it the situations I knew with quiet morphine overdose were a few decades back. I suspect that controls on who has what drugs where and when are much stricter now so probably it's not as possible to do it any more.

So I guess that now with tighter drug controls and more life prolonging treatments etc things are getting worse in a way for people who are in these situations and want to call it a day.