Even as an atheist, non-homophobic, I think it is ridiculous to expect religions to conduct gay marriage. AIBU?

[Wamster]

I mean why would they if they only believe marriage to be between a man and a woman? I DON'T see it that way-as far as I'm concerned, marriage is a legal issue and as gay people already have civil partnership which offer same legal rights as marriage, I find the moaning about gay marriage irritating.

But that is besides the point: the fact is that some religions only believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and it is ridiculous to force them to change their minds without seriously messing that religion up.

People cannot expect religions to mould themselves to a nice politically-correct world. I accept this as an atheist. It's time the religious did, too.

Celebrating and validating their loving relationship. 'Scuse me while I puke. Marriage has got nothing to do with celebrating and validating a loving relationship or, rather, you don't need to be married to celebrate and validate a relationship. The only validation that comes with marriage is a legal one and well gay people can do this already by becoming civilly-partnered. As for celebrating, well have a great big party afterwards.

Marriage means different things to different people.

I know it does, PosiePumblechook, but there is no denying that from an objective viewpoint it is a legal matter and everything else is optional.

'A gay couple cannot get married. A straight couple cannot have a civil partnership. Yet both ceremonies can be performed in a registry office with all the same legal rights. So does it matter what you call it?'

That about sums it up for me. I dont care what 'sound' is used to decsirbe it (and words are only sounds). I got married because as a woman it gave me certain rights (this was decades ago) and at the time it gave us some tax relief on something. Possibly a mortgage. I cant remember. 5 mins in the registry office then all down the pub.

an american friend of mine (woman) is in a relationship with a man, and she recently announced they are in a, civil partnership

mathanxiety
Absolutely, it's not a problem to have a registrar there. As I see it, the problem is that if they simply say 'Gay marriage is now legal', then Equality Law may well force churches/temples/mosques to perform gay marriages, which may be impossible under their religion. The politicians are saying it wouldn't, but the lawyers say it may well do.

The reason it's a problem is because the CE don't need a registrar, I think, because of the role of the CE within the country (as we are officially an Anglican and Christian country). So, in order to please the Equality Law, there would need to be another law passed, which would remove the right of the CE to perform their own marriages without a registrar present. Which is devaluing the Queen, and the Church, and as such is disestablishmentarianism.

I'm not arguing for the rights or the wrongs of that at all. But I fundamentally doubt that that is a road that Cameron would wish to ride his horse down (even one borrowed from the Met Police ), because there are all sorts of further implications in terms of how far you go.

CrunchyFrog "How can you conflate being homosexual with religious belief? Religion is a choice, and a social/ cultural construct. (Otherwise, it's an amazing co-incidence that the children of RC people tend to become RC.) You don't choose your sexual orientation - well, at any rate, I never chose to be heterosexual, unless I was drunk at the time."

I'm not saying they are the same thing. What I'm saying is that, if you believe in God, or have a faith, you can't 'choose' not to, it is an integral part of you. And I do find it disrespectful to say 'it should all be abolished',and it tends to be Christians who have this aimed at them, I don't know why, but it does seem to be.

Not many people manage to get the word 'disestablishmentarianism' into a post Lily

Wamster, try Pepto Bismol if you keep feeling the urge to puke.

For the umpteenth time, this ISN'T about YOUR views on what marriage means, whether it's important, etc.

Marriage exists, whether you like it or not.

Some people choose to get married, whether you like it or not.

Some faith communities have the legal right to carry out marriages under the auspices of their faith, whether you like it or not.

Some people who are members of those faith communities would like to be married within those faith communities, but the law only allows them to do this if they are marrying someone of the opposite sex.

It's unfair. Full stop. If you're straight, imho, you don't actually have the right to dictate how Lesbian or gay people should think or feel or what they should do according to your beliefs. If you do, that still smacks of hetero normative privilege, as the folks who like long words say.

If I were homosexual, I wouldn't be happy with a church I don't belong to dictating how marriage, a legal institution, is defined and declaring my relationship unfit for the title. I'm heterosexual and I'm not happy with religions sticking their oar in and forcing their IMO bigoted beliefs onto people who have nothing to do with them. It is not a matter of how much time has been 'wasted' on this already, it is a matter of principle and equality.

Lily because Christianity is the religion with the unreasonable amounts of power.

AFAIK there are no people of other religions in the area I live in. There is, however, a massive Christian bias in the RE curriculum, an expectation of respect for the religious and an assumption that one cannot have a decent moral life without it.

Northern Ireland is a bit different, I know, but that's why my main "target" is Christianity. It's the one that is forced upon me on a daily basis, forced upon my children, denies women bodily autonomy and contributes to the continued divides in the society I live in. If I lived somewhere where Islam had undue influence, I'd fight against that.

While I would like to see an end to religion, I wouldn't say I'm fighting for that. What I want is religion out of schools, hospitals, the military and law making. That would be wonderful.

CrunchyFrog but Christians as a whole do not have unreasonable power. And of course across the centuries they have been persecuted too.

I'm not arguing the case for or against the church being wrapped up with the state - it's a huge issue. What I'm saying is that because of the current position, and especially because the Queen is head of both Church and Government, splitting the two is not a road I see Cameron angling to go down at all. He is trying to get brownie points, essentially, but hasn't thought through consequences of Equality Law.

I also think respect for one another and one another's beliefs is the key. And belittling Christianity is the game of choice atm, and it is really hard for lots of people, not just Catholic priests in white dresses, but lots of ordinary people (including lots of MNetters), who just have a quiet faith, don't shout about it, but it is a cornerstone of their lives, and as such, referring to 'imaginary friends' and saying 'ALL RELIGIONS SHOULD BE ABOLISHED' is really disrespectful.

(What I mean by the first sentence is that the average Christian person on the street doesn't have lots of power - at least I haven't noticed any!!!!).

"AFAIK there are no people of other religions in the area I live in. There is, however, a massive Christian bias in the RE curriculum, an expectation of respect for the religious and an assumption that one cannot have a decent moral life without it"

I'm not sure I understand this point? There are bound to be people of other religions in whatever area you live in, surely?

And I presume by 'bodily autonomy' - are you talking about abortion? Because it is only in the Catholic church that that is a problem.

Lily - she said 'Northern Ireland'. Different situation there. I was gobsmacked when I first realised that - I don't understand why in the 21st century part of the UK is stuck in the 19th.

oh ok, that makes more sense then, sorry, didn't spot that.

at stuff about NOBODY being allowed to get married in a church, just so nobody feels excluded.

Noblegiraffe, everyone has a right to their views, and churches, though not individuals, do also.

LilyBolero, all that would be required would be an 'exception for religious belief' clause. Then those churches that were fine with the concept could go ahead and those who weren't would be able to restrict marriage to heterosexual couples. (Though that is not the way things are headed in the US with health insurance policy and religious exclusion, I have to admit. Perhaps with exclusion allowed strictly in the case of marriage? After all, the RC church and some others are even now not required to allow women as priests or ministers, so equality legislation must have some limit?)

No it isn't, Lily.

Abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland, because our political arena is stuffed full of Catholics and Evangelicals - who agree on this issue completely. I emailed my (RC) MP on the matter, didn't even get a reply.

And, AFAIK (and my children attend the Integrated school) the town has 60% RC, 30% Protestant and 10% Other. We used to have a Muslim family, but they moved away. It's overwhelmingly Christian. (If you're interested, have a look at the Northern Ireland RE curriculum for primary age children. Fuck all to do with Education - it's pure indoctrination.)

Oh, sorry, the 10% other is mainly people in mixed (RC/ Protestant) marriages, Jehovah's Witnesses and the non-religious.

at stuff about NOBODY being allowed to get married in a church, just so nobody feels excluded.

no - just that the legal contract part should be a separate thing from whatever religious marriage ceremony you wanted (and IMO having the two parts in the same place would work fine). So the church doesn't interfere in the state, and the state doesn't interfere with the church.

I'm a Christian. I've been waiting for that unreasonable power for awhile now...just let me at it, I'll set the world to rights!

Biblically, marriage was created by God as a union between a man and a woman (for mutual support and the raising of children). Therefore it's not that God and indeed Christians, doesn't/don't love gay people - God loves everyone so much that he let his son be killed to save them - rather than 'marriage' between two people of the same gender is unbiblical: it contradicts its definition in the same way that marriage between say a man and his car, or a woman and her shoes (being incredibly stereotypical!) would be.

The refusal of Christians to allow gay marriage is therefore not homophobic but rather an adherence to biblical teachings of the meaning (in the dictionary sense) of marriage.

Plus I agree with whomever it was that said that it's the Tories attempting to be down with the kids and as such is offensive and patronising....

Therefore YANBU.

Yank - I think the 'power' problem relates mostly to the UK - the christian church does have undue privelige and influence relative to the number of active members. Schools and Bishops and 'Thought' for the bleeding day

"LilyBolero, all that would be required would be an 'exception for religious belief' clause. Then those churches that were fine with the concept could go ahead and those who weren't would be able to restrict marriage to heterosexual couples. (Though that is not the way things are headed in the US with health insurance policy and religious exclusion, I have to admit. Perhaps with exclusion allowed strictly in the case of marriage? After all, the RC church and some others are even now not required to allow women as priests or ministers, so equality legislation must have some limit?)"

That didn't 'help' with the Catholic adoption agencies though did it - they were forced to close.

Crunchyfrogs - I think NI is entirely different from the rest of the UK, and obviously that's something that should be addressed, but I don't see it as being part of the same issue really, but you're absolutely right, it should be brought in line with the UK.

Thought for the Day is all religions though! The only stipulation is that it is religious. There are regularly contributions from other faiths.

The rest of the programme is secular after all!!!!