To not understand how gay marriage undermines marriage in general?

[toptramp]

Just watched the news and heard the Churche's view. You could marry a horse for all I care. I think it is highly discriminatory not to let gay people marry.
I think that the stance of the church shows how out of date it really is and is doing it no favours.

Is it? I'm not married, clearly.

Just don't see why the church should have any power over who marries whom if it's legal anyway.

Yeah, noddy. Why can't you just sign the document in an office, then go have a party/ church blessing/ big gay disco or whatever the fuck you want afterwards.

Not everyone in the church is against - our vicar preached in favour in his sermon yesterday and made the following really good points:

• marriage is a constantly evolving institution. 500 years ago you didn't even need a priest to get married, you could just promise to each other.
• the prayerbook was changed in 1928 and now doesn't stress that marriage is for the production of children

'in the eyes of the church my husband and I are not actually married' oh ffs this is 2012 not the fucking dark ages.

I think it undermines the negative facets of marriage.

I have always viewed marriage as a state of grace, as something very special, between two people who are in love and who wish to make a formal and legal commitment to each other.

However a lot of the issues around marriage, and the unwritten 'vibes' is that marriage somehow makes a woman belong to a man, she becomes his property. It's a horribly old-fashioned view, but one that does bubble beneath the surface.

Now, if you have gay marriage, two men, or two women, getting married, then that old-fashioned view of marriage is challenged, because marriage becomes, very obviously, a marriage of equals (as it should be).

So that is why gay marriage "undermines" marriage, because it challenges the preconceptions of ownership and inequality.

If I was a homosexual I'm not sure I'd want to get married in a religious building where the teachings condemn me for being homosexual.

The Merchant, I thought you can be gay in those religions, they don't care who you fancy, the issue is with following the bible, that they shouldn't lie with another man.

I'm not saying they shouldn't I think gay marriage should be legal.

The whole walking down the aisle bollocks aaaaah! Being given away and the vows that no one bloody keeps but hark back to when they split.

Quint - So your religion gets to dictate what other religions do then?

I don't understand why people don't get this. Some religions e.g. quakers have been campaignining to be allowed legally, to carry out civil partnerships. At the moment it is illeagl for them to do so. All the proposed law change will do is mean that those religions who want to marry gay couples, can do so.

Archemedes - it doesn't really matter what you'd want. :)

If you're gay and have been raised in a particular faith, and followed say, Jesus' teachings (as opposed to the Bible), you may well want to get married within the religion that you believe in.

It's sort of like men saying they can't understand why women would want to join the army and fight wars - bloody messy business, why would they even want to? Not really the point, is it? wink]

Not at all Lesley. I think you misunderstand on purpose.

Why would anybody want to have a marriage ceremony performed in a religion they dont follow?

Would I as a Christian scream for the right to have for example, a Muslim ceremony performed? Would they allow to wed me in their religion?

The Church has always reserved their right to not wed somebody who is not a member of their Church, or their parish, why should gay couples have the right to rock up to Church and demand a religious ceremony?

I think quintessentialyhollo is saying that gay people can't be Christian? Or am I misunderstanding??

Quint - please see my post at 09:03:17..

Why are continually supposing gay people don't belong to any religion?

No Quint I am not purposefully misunderstanding your post. Just pointing out that some religions do want to marry gay people and that this proposed new law will make this possible. The law will not have to mean that any religion has to marry gay people, just that they can if they want.

But sorry I think a lot of the arguments people put up about this proposed new law, if they understand the propsed changes, is really a disguise for homophobia.

I do think I can say with quite some certainty that very few non-Catholic gay people would want to 'rock up' and demand to be wed by a priest.

Clearly - clearly - we'd be talking about gay people who do belong to a religion.

One of my best friends is gay, christian, and his father is a priest. He has done a lot of soul searching and decided to be celibate, to not act on his desires, because his Faith is stronger than his needs. He has a happy and content life in a wide circle of family and friends.

The bible is quite clear on homosexuality.

How people interpret this is of course their own choice and decision. Many of my gay friends say things like "of course you can not lay with a man the same was as a woman, the anatomy does not fit" so the Bible does not apply to us in this respect. There are many ways around how you gel your faith and your sexuality.

This includes priests. They have as much right to interpret the Bible in the way they see best. If it is the right way, or the wrong way, I cannot judge his or her judgement, like I cannot judge anybody else faith or lack thereof.

But as for a wedding ceremony? I think keeping the law and the church separate in this respect is a good thing. Of course anybody who wants to get married with another human being (rather than a goat or a horse or a car) should have a legal right to do so.

I dont understand why a gay person would want to be wed in the eyes of God? Hopefully somebody can educate me. Maybe it is my preconceptions of the Bible, and my own shortcomings in reconciling myself with Faith. But, the God in the Bible is a rather old-fashioned chap, and like I said, quite clear on homosexuality.
I dont understand how a gay person can reconcile this fact with his or her faith and actually want to from a faith perspective get married in a Church.

Following the Bible, and especially in the Catholic church, you can only marry ONCE, and you cannot get divorced. The Anglican I think, and especially the Lutheran church is more lenient regards to this. The amount of anguish this is causing my divorced Catholic friends, is horrendous. The guilt complex enormous.

Maybe what I am leaning towards, why would anybody want a Church marriage.

It all depends on whether you are "old school" religious or not. If you are, you see marriage as a sacred vow between a man and a woman. If you are not, you cannot see the problem.

The Old School religions do not want to be forced to marry gays in their places of worship by law, that is the nub of the argument. In essence they see this as a battle between the primacy of personal religious belief vs mandated state belief.

I am not Old School but I do believe in freedom of choice, so IMO Gays can choose to get married, but IMO a Church can also choose not to marry them.

Sorted.