to think the school is taking the P

[parakeet]

It has emerged that through a massive cock-up, our primary school has wasted a stack of money (let's say between £10,000 and £20,000) on some useless equipment. I don't want to give more details in case it identifies me but this is unrecoverable.

A few parents have become aware of this, but most not. The school appears to be trying to keep quiet about it. You might say well why is it any of the parent's business, but we are a small Church school, which asks for a yearly "voluntary contribution" from the parents, and the PTA does a lot of fundraising too.

The headteacher is now trying get PTA funds directed towards replacing the useless equipment - while still keeping quiet about the reasons. I'm wary of rocking the boat but I feel why should we work our arses off running school fetes etc to raise money for the school under these circumstances?

At the very least I'd like to see communication from the school about how the money came to be wasted and what measures they have put in place to make sure it doesn't happen again. (Presumably someone took a financial decision without fully researching the consequences.) I'd love to hear from knowledgeable people about whether the school has some sort of legal obligation to keep us informed?

I am not sure about legal obligation, but if the head wants PTA money, which you quite rightly say is raised on the back of hard work from the parents, then I think they should come clean. How did you find out? Are you a governor? It sounds like the type of thing that gets discussed at a governors meeting, and minutes of those meetings have to be made available to the parents if requested.

Is there no way the things can be sold? Are they totally useless as in nobody would be able to use them, or just not suitable for the school?

Why couldn't they just return the stuff?

tbh, I wouldn't be keeping it quiet. I'd want to go through all the options with them.

If this is essential equipment then where else would they get the money? They will have to save it from something else. This is not easy in schools where the level of discretional spend is tiny. Once the school has paid teachers salaries, heating, electricity etc the amount available to spend on one-off items or optional things to enhance education is minimal.

If they do need the equipment then they have to cut back elsewhere, or could ask the PTA to pay for the things they would otherwise have to cut. Money is fungible. Whether they get the PTA to pay for the replacement equipment or to pay for the things the school had to cut to pay for the replacement itself doesn't really matter.

Governing body minutes are public documents so you coule request to see the relevant minutes. Or you could suggest that you will request to see the minutes if the rumours are not cleared up (though this sounds a little bit blackmaily).

I think the best way to be cleared up would be to gain an understanding of the financial controls in place and how they have been implemented or amended to prevent a recurrence.

The school budget and what it's spent on will have been agreed by the Governors and audited...the audit results being made available to the LA.

It's not really parent's business what it's spent on.

Even if the money came from funds that were raised by the PTA, again the school can spend it how they please.

If there is any wrong doing, the LA will be made aware of it.

If there isn't, then they'll have to adjust their budget accordingly to make up for the error.

Governing body minutes are not public documents as such

They're made available to 'interested parties'...but the Governors and the LA would have to agree in that party's interest.

Also, any matter the Governing body deems confidential will not be made public to anyone.

Our confidental minutes are printed on lilac paper and all lilac paper must be shredded once we've finished with them.

Our PTA is arranged so that funds are separate from the schools, and the school has to request the money, which then has to be agreed by the PTA in a majority vote during one of its meetings. In this scenario we would be asking questions, and if we decided not to release the funds until we got further answers then the school could not do anything about it. So it does depend on the set up. Not sure if that helps in your situation though.

Try a freedom of information act request to the school. All state schools come under FOI.

Our confidential minutes are held on pink paper. However an item like this would not be on pink paper as it is not confidential unless you think that saving face by making it confidential is acceptable.

I disagree that it isn't the parents business what the school spends its money on if the school then asks the parents for a top-up.

If the funds come from the PTA then the PTA holds the funds until a request is made by the school for the funds, generally the request would be for a specific purpose. If the school then spent the money on something else (i.e. did not buy the item or service it said it would) then the PTA might not have any recourse, but I imagine that the PTA would be unwilling to do further fundraising to then pour money into a blackhole with no obvious benefit to the children. It would therefore be a foolish governing body that swindled money from the PTA by lying about the purpose. Obvioiusly this is not a legal matter but is a matter of good governance for the governing body to remain on good terms with the PTA.

I'm on the PTA and the head always asks us for money for specific purchases. The PTA is a charity and the committee members are trustees of the money and the only ones who can sign cheques. It certainly can't be spent by the school 'how they please.' We have been known to say 'no' to requests by the head and we certainly wouldn't be handing money over without a proper explanation.

Our confidential minutes are held on pink paper. However an item like this would not be on pink paper as it is not confidential unless you think that saving face by making it confidential is acceptable

It's not really down to what I think, but the Governors may well have made it confidential.

Generally though you will find that school budgets are nothing to do with parents.

Fundraising budgets are a different kettle of fish alltogether but the OP hasn't stated where the original money that was wasted, came from.

our primary school has wasted a stack of money (let's say between £10,000 and £20,000) on some useless equipment.

I'd cry laughing if half the secondaries round here hadn't been forced into hostile academies .....20K? Jeez ... one school is 1.6mio in the red, another 800K, another 600K .... 20K thats absolutely NOTHING and recoverable.

but we are a small Church school

never seen a poor church

To answer some questions, the school spent its own money on equipment X. X now turns out to be useless for our needs and there's no way it can be returned. It could be sold second-hand, I would guess they would get less than half-price for it.

The school is now requesting the PTA spend its funds on new X - without explaining why we need new X. As Lizzie said, the school has to request PTA funds for specific purposes, so we can, if we like, vote no. I'm not a governor, but am on the PTA, and we know there has been a cockup, but we don't know how the cockup happened.

Troisgarcons you may think it's small beer and "recoverable" but the school is trying to recover it by coming begging from the parents, without so much as an explanation or apology. We do not work our arses off on the boiling hot school field to cover up the governors'/school's financial mismanagement.

You also, by the way, seem rather hostile to the entire concept of church schools, which seems rather a red herring to me.

Also meant to add: it is debatable whether or not this equipment is essential.

So the school wanted a teapot. The school bought a chocolate teapot. They have taken it out of its wrapping, realised it is chocolate, so not going to be of much use, and, as it is out of its wrapping and may have been licked by children, it is not returnable and may not have a great resale value. So the school has now approached the PTA saying "we want a teapot, please buy us one". There is a rumour in the PTA that there was a chocolate teapot fiasco within the school but the school has not admitted this to the PTA. Whether a teapot is an essential for a school is debatable and the PTA might have other ideas about how to spend the money, such as play equipment or ICT stuff.

If the school is small this could mean 100 children. So at £10,000 we are talking about £100 per child. So the average family will have contributed £100 per child through PTA fundraising (not to mention the cost of the ingredients to bake the cakes, the time spent manning stalls etc.

The PTA members are now concerned that the PTA is being used to fill in gaps created by financial mismanagement within the school, rather than for its primary purpose of providing extra funds to enhance their children's educations. Even if the money that was originally wasted was school funds rather than PTA funds it amounts to wasting the PTA's funds as the PTA would be able to contribute something else if the school's funds had not been wasted.

I don't see why this isn't the PTA's business. The PTA may be willing to step in and rescue the school from this cock-up but needs to be reassured that this is a one-off. Otherwise the PTA will get dissillusioned and activities will dwindle, which is not in the best interests of anyone.

I don't think that the PTA should necessarily rely on the LA's audit an just roll over when the school asks. This is the PTA's money and the PTA gets to choose how it is spent (within it's charitable remit) and if the PTA wants to make enquiries before parting with the money then the PTA is well within its rights to make those enquiries. If the school doesn't wish to answer them, then the school can make that decision (subject to the availability of minutes etc), but the school might wish to stay on good terms with the PTA and therefore cooperate.

Right, the only thing that makes this your business OP is the fact you're on the PTA and the PTA want to know why they're being asked to work their arses off to replace this equipment.

That's fair enough.

Put it in writing to the Governors and make it clear the equipment won't be replaced until you get an answer.

Then the ball is in their court.

What breatheslowly said.

Was it the HT's cock-up or is he trying to protect another member of staff? Unintentional cock-ups do happen.

I'd be concerned what else is the headteacher and board of governors are hiding.

Also I didn't think PTA money raised could be used to replaced/buy things for the school directly but to be used for extras/treats for the children in the school.

Why the drama? I can understand at this stage why you may be upset, but before indulging in conspiracy theories and worrying about the Freedom of Information Act, why not just speak to the school?

As you might have guessed (!) I am a school governor. A good governing body will foster links with all the stakeholders in the school and parents and the PTA should be included (see Ofsted inspection evaluation schedule). So it should be perfectly possible for a representative from the PTA to ask to meet up with the Head and Chair of Govs to find out about this. If you are a member of the PTA I don't think you should run off on your own to do this, you are part of a group and should check with the Chair, or at your next meeting if it's soon, and find out how the PTA as a group wants to deal with this matter. My governing body has a governor with a role to liaise with the PTA, and I'm sure if we had a similar situation they would speak to him.
To correct some misunderstandings above:
The public minutes of governing body meetings are public documents - after they have been ratified at the next meeting of the same committee or the FGB. Until that time they and any discussion taking place around the table is confidential. You should be able to go into your school and ask at the office to see the public minutes. They might not be able to produce them on demand (the secretary might not know where the clerk to the governors files them), but within a reasonable time you should be able to sit down and have a read.
Confidential minutes are never published and remain confidential to the governing body. Confidential minutes are made up of items that the governing body (or committee) deemed to be confidential during the meeting.
Also - the governing body are responsible for the school finances, and accountable to their funding body (which may be the Local Authority, but not in all cases). The school budget is part of the public record. The school does not control PTA funds, the PTA does. The school controls School Fund, which is different.
As said by others, you don't know how this "cock up" happened and at the moment it's all rumour and speculation among parents gossiping. The PTA should act in a professional manner and seek more information as a corporate body.

Reference to most of this is found in The Guide to the Law for School Governors, which is easily found by Google.

You also, by the way, seem rather hostile to the entire concept of church schools, which seems rather a red herring to me.

Quite the opposite - I think all schools should be run by the church and not the state but that is entirely another debate.

Tthe trouble with the PTA is it often thinks it runs the school - quite a manifestation of give someone a little power and information and they become dangerous.

It could be sold?

ok. Then it must be sold. Half price is better than what you'd get for throwing it in the bin!

Then it is a matter for the PTA to decide whether they think it is best to give PTA funds towards this essential equipment - and give the difference between what the school got for selling the other lot and what it will cost to buy the stuff that is actually 'essential'.

Regardless what happened, regardless whose fault it is - if this is equipment which is essential to the children's education - then they must have it. (I'm just trying to think of equipment that is essential. I can think of lots of things that are nice and which help, things that are useful, or which provide a different experience - but I'm struggling to find essential things. desks maybe . all singing all dancing security system...)

At the end of the day, I assume the PTA has children at the school? So I assume that it wants the best for the children?

The school wasted money. Someone cocked up. A public flogging is not what matters. What matters is putting the mistake right if at all possible, in the best interests of the children.

There's nothing wrong with telling the head that you know what happened, and you don't appreciate being lied to, but the whole school Must Know is more like punishment, and that's unhelpful.

Thanks for the useful advice from various posters. By JustHecate's definition, this is not essential equipment, but as you say, probably only desks and books would be. It is, however, almost universal in schools these days, so I can only assume most teachers value it.

I absolutely agree it's not about punishing it's about making sure this doesn't happen again. But once the PTA knows, I don't see how we can justify keeping it secret from other parents if they ask (and rumours are starting to circulate).

And I hardly think this is an example of the PTA trying to "run the school" - just have some control over how our own hard-earned money is spent.

I think a frank conversation with the head is in order. Are the parents really sovile that the head is terrified of admitting that someone made a mistake? Surely not. People make mistakes. Sometimes people make expensive mistakes.

They didn't grab the school's cash and set fire to it in a big bin while dancing round it naked.

Someone made a mistake. It is unfortunate that that mistake will cost so much money to put right, but I am assuming the parents are actual human beings who have made mistakes in life and are not going to chase after the head with pitchforks!

If it is universal equipment in schools, then how is it useless to you? Would it be cheaper to make changes so that you can use it rather than replacing it wholesale?

(obviously this would depend on what it is!)

I hate threads like this. I just want to know what the equipment is. I can't say YABU or Yanbu until I know!