To watch Crufts

[Goawaybob]

Despite the fact that i have a massive problem with the breeding of dogs for asthetics. I suppose me watching it doesn't really support this, but can't help but feel guilty.

My SIL has a bulldog - the dog is unable to walk past the end of the road without hving a rest, its breathing is laboured, its ataxic athough BIL wont accept it and get the poor dog looked at.

Yet i still like watching all of these mutants on crusts [guilty face]

i was just watching and wondering why they had such ridiculous names

Interestingly, the Bulldog that won best of breed has been disqualified because it failed the health tests. So has at least one other breed. Looks like Crufts may be making moves in the correct direction

Crufts are feeling more pressure these days aren't they? From charities and public etc

Anyone in the know about these things.

That does at least sound like a positive move Goldenbrown

Yes Goldenbrown, you are right, however it does make me :( that what the judge has chosen as the best of breed is actually an example of a dog that has health issues - i think it illustrates exactly how there is a huge divide between what is healthy and what is considered attractive.

I did correctly pick the best of group too

'mutants' FFS they're all just dogs .

and if you don't like the world of KC breeders (and there is, to be fair, plenty to be criticised in terms of not doing enough to further breed health), try the worlds of back-yard breeders and puppyfarmers for size (bearing in mind these aren't entirely mutually exclusive, some KC breeders are puppyfarmers with certificates for their dogs...)

the only proper health testing breeding programmes exist within the world of the pedigree dog, for the simple reason that without paperwork...there's no guarantee.

Have no time for the showing aspect but I watch for the dog sports. Not a single dog bred for aesthetics there, only for function, pedigree or non pedigree. :)

Oh yes, I agree completely that this now flags up problems with the judging. But it's a first step

And I wouldn't set much stock by these so called health tests, unless the vets have x-ray eyes it's all fairly arbitrary. Obviously anything unable to breathe properly needs to be excluded but how on earth can they assess hips, elbows, hearts, some eye disorders etc?

Endless, just because there are vile backstreet breeders and puppy farms doesn't make it any less wrong that some misguided breeders are breeding dogs to ridiculous extremes. These people love their dogs too, they are not bad people, but it is bad practice.

hips - x-ray for hip score. breeding records of 5 gens of hip scores is a fair indiciation of a likelihood or otherwise for hip dyplasia (although of course, there's always a chance....)
eye test - progressive retinal atrophy has been all but eliminated from some breeds by testing.
keeping records of affected dogs and their genealogy can give realistic pictures of the risk-factors of each mating producing affected offspring.

some of the testing only gives a 'now' picture rather than a carrier/affected genetic status for each dog, true, but 1) this is slowly changing as the testing gets better and 2) use of breed records makes this a more useful tool.

There are proper tests for hips and eyes, veterinary ones. We have just got a pedigree puppy so have researched loads.

I maintain... It is a STEP in the right direction. It is not a complete solution, but they are edging towards it. Yes, i would like to see them edge faster, but progress is progress.

(I must admit, I was at Crufts last year and LOVED it. Although my crossbreed is apparently not to their liking)

What EAP said.

A very small minority of pedigree breeds have health problems and cross breeds can have hereditary health problems too, only the people breeding them largely couldn't care less and certainly don't screen for problems. However, over 90% of KC registrations are from BYB's and puppy farmers and something absolutely should be done about that, the KC Accredited Breeder Scheme is a joke!!!

toboldlygo health tests involve x rays, genetic screening for eye disorders, specialist eye exams and speacialist heart tests (not up on heart tests as the breed I have don't have heart problems usually)

I totally agree toboldlygo - alot of the genetic defects present in breeds haven't been selected for, but they are there because of a restricted gene pool.

A few classic examples

Boxers: Cardiomyopathy (enlarged heart)
Cavalier king charles spaniel (Mitral valve insufficiency - resulting in congestive heart failure)
Labradors: Entropian (Ingrown eye lashes)
Rotties and GSDs Hip Dysplasia etc etc.

There should be more emphasis on breeding congenital defects out of dogs rather than encouraging mutations, and yes, they are mutations if they are caused by a defective gene. Look at the british bulldogs, pretty much unable to give birth without a ceasarian, they are a massive anaesthetic risk, yet people still continue to strive for dogs with huge shoulders and small pelvis

Sorry, I meant health test as in the vet check they have now introduced at Crufts for the at-risk breeds - of course the actual health tests are viable!

Unless they are x-raying and hip scoring on the day having a vet look at the dog doesn't mean a damn thing.

The shape of the skull and bodies has completely changed over the years. I saw a bit of that BBC programme.

I do agree that things ARE getting better endless, and i wonder if there is affordable genetic testing available for potential breed animals?

well, it isn't the full picture is it? some breeds have wandered from the original look of the dog (GSDs for example) ...a fault encouraged by the show ring (or at least not stopped). however if it is disapproved of by the show ring...then it can correct that way too.

some of the qualities you might term 'aesthetic' are also essential to a nicely shaped, well made dog fit for the purpose of its breed. breeding for health, soundness etc...is not an aim in any way essentially opposed to that of the show ring.

You are after all, buggered if you spend your time campaigning a dog too sick to show come the day.

so come on then Endless, what dogs to you breed (genuinely curious and not judgy)

i don't breed dogs. there is absolutely no way i would want to have the stress of finding an appropriate dog, mating a bitch, whelping her , finding homes for her puppies (good ones that won't ever abandon or abuse them, or hand them back to me for silly reasons when they get bored..) and then spend the next 15-odd years worrying about the little buggers before they die. And then feeling sad because my dogs offspring died. For me it could never be worth the money. Though i appreciate that for others with a real passion for improving their breed, it could be.