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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not know if describing a person as coloured is politically incorrect.

646 replies

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 25/02/2012 19:05

Was talking to a friend today and I mentioned I had met one of his colleagues (but I wasn't sure who). He said. Oh was she a coloured lady?

I said yes and we each knew who it was I had met. I was a bit taken aback as you don't really hear the word coloured used anymore. But it was probably the best way to describe her (kind of Mediterranean / Indian).

Was I being too politically correct for being Shock at the way he described her?

OP posts:
tethersend · 27/02/2012 13:50

"I think the problem is for a lot of people there is nothing inherently offensive in the term so they don't instinctively know to avoid it"

But there is nothing inherently offensive about any word, tomverlaine- a word's offensiveness is rarely to be found in its literal meaning.

To continue the Orwellian theme, he writes:

[...]when a word is well established as a swear word, it seems to lose its original meaning; that is, it loses the thing that made it into a swear word. A word becomes an oath because it means a certain thing, and, because it has become an oath, it ceases to mean that thing. For example, 'fuck'. The Londoners do not now use, or very seldom use, this word in its original meaning; it is on their lips from morning till night, but it is a mere expletive and means nothing. Similarly with 'bugger', which is rapidly losing its original sense.

Words used as insults seem to be governed by the same paradox as swear words. A word becomes an insult, one would suppose, because it means something bad; but in practice its insult-value has little to do with its actual meaning. For example, the most bitter insult one can offer to a Londoner is 'bastard'--which, taken for what it means, is hardly an insult at all. And the worst insult to a woman, either in London or Paris, is 'cow'; a name which might even be a compliment, for cows are among the most likeable of animals. Evidently a word is an insult simply because it is meant as an insult, without reference to its dictionary meaning; words, especially swear words, being what public opinion chooses to make them.

Down and Out in Paris and London, 1933.

PeppyNephrine · 27/02/2012 13:51

Um, no. You've got that one backwards. Try again!

Its why, by the way, not what.

LulaPalooza · 27/02/2012 13:51

I agree with oikopolis - I would never use the term freely in a country other than South Africa or Namibia... if i mention this group to others, i preface it with "they call themselves this, it's used in political discourse even, i know it sounds offensive but it's not in their context"

DH is SA Coloured, from the Western Cape. He hates the term mixed race and refuses to self-define as such. Our friends and family back home in SA are similarly perplexed by the term mixed race. They proudly define their ethnicity as Coloured, despite the Apartheid connotations.

However, DH recognises that in a British or American context the word "coloured" can be offensive and he ends up having to use the same explanation as oikopolis.

Interestingly... or, actually depressingly, Coloured South Africans are fast becoming the least empowered group in SA but that's another thread all by itself.

mingofmongo · 27/02/2012 13:52

You got busted PeppyNephrine.

Whatmeworry · 27/02/2012 13:54

Tethers - check out the Euphemistic Treadmill, ie whichever word is today's acceptable term becomes tomorrow's unacceptable one. I think that explains the semantic shift dynamic happening here far better than the above passage.

The one that does intrigue me is the shift from "X-ed" to "people of/with X"

tethersend · 27/02/2012 13:55

"Replace "disabled" with "blacks" and you are sounding exactly like the people you accuse of racism, dear"

Therein lies another subtlety which makes the English language so great- Use a word- for example, 'black', as an adjective, it's not offensive. Use it as a noun and you come across as massively racist. Interesting, no?

"I think I know what you lot don't like lists, it allows you wriggle room when hoist on your petards."

tethersend · 27/02/2012 13:58

What you call the 'Euphemistic Treadmill', most others call the evolution of language; which is after all, organic.

I am just confused as to why you and others see this as such a terrible thing?

giveitago · 27/02/2012 13:59

Whereas I class myself as mix raced, my previous south african colleague refered to herself as coloured (and felt we were being racist to call her mixed raced as she was proud to be called coloured) and my mother refers to me as coloured (as she's from an African country).

Oh interesting Lula because when I went to south africa it seemed like mixed race/coloured people were coming into their own. Sad this isn't lasting as I felt so comfortable with this group of sa community.

But each country is different - in the UK the term 'coloured' is considered so bad these days and we must remember not to call anyone that (including me) not to offend.

Whatmeworry · 27/02/2012 14:01

You can use the word, as I said twice already (do try to keep up), but people will think you a tool

No, a tool is someone who lambasts someone else as being a Moron for not being PC sensitive.

PeppyNephrine · 27/02/2012 14:03

Yeah I got busted by having a consistent argument throughtout the thread (that the likes of whatmeworry find too hard to follow)

You know what, its not hard. Language does not change overnight, its not particularly contentious. The vast majority of people know that coloured went out with the ark, and most of those who were unaware will get on board pretty quickly when told.

Its only the tiny minority that defend using outdated and offensive terminolgy by wittering on about PC nonsense and how they can say what the like. And they can, because we don't ban words. We just make assumptions about the type of person who will go the bother of defending their rights to say coloured and paki. And especially those who laughably quote Orwell and use big words that they clearly haven't fully understood.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 27/02/2012 14:03

'PC sensitive', oh dear.

You can argue what you like, but people will - at best - think you are a tool for using the word coloured.

PeppyNephrine · 27/02/2012 14:05

"No, a tool is someone who lambasts someone else as being a Moron for not being PC sensitive."

Perhaps you should have a lie down before coming back and re-reading. How can someone who denies the existence of "political correctness" lambast anyone for not being sensitive to it? Hmm

mingofmongo · 27/02/2012 14:08

Having a consistent argument, yet falling dismally short of your own PC rules.

Disablist? Racist? Same sort of bigotry.

No-one is calling you disablist though PeppyNephrine because we know that it is the intent that matters.

Is it getting any clear for you yet?

seeker · 27/02/2012 14:09

Nobody has even been able to come up with anything that "political correctness" stops them saying that is not racist, sexist, homophobic or disablist.

Whatmeworry · 27/02/2012 14:12

Nobody has even been able to come up with anything that "political correctness" stops them saying that is not racist, sexist, homophobic or disablist.

And they reserve the right to define what is racist, sexist, homophobic or disablist at that time, to suit themselves, and refuse all requests to define the words.

Thus today, calling someone a "Moron" is not disablist, if you are pro PC this afternoon. Tomorrow, of course, used by somone else who is Not Approved Of, it will be again.

PeppyNephrine · 27/02/2012 14:13

I don't have PC rules. Did you miss the several times where I said there is no such thing as political correctness?

No-one is calling me "disabilist" because moron is not a word that is outdated and offensive to pretty much everyone. There may be an argument to be had that as it was (a very long time ago) used as a classification of IQ level its not a good word to use, but then you'd have to say the same for idiot. Which I'm guessing you say, like everyone else?

Nice try, your big exposition of a double standard, but FAIL.

Whatmeworry · 27/02/2012 14:14

Peppy, do stop wriggling on your petard, your knickers are showing and your tool is sticking out.....

tethersend · 27/02/2012 14:18

Whatme, in the absence of a list from you as requested, can I assume that you are refusing to provide one, or that you do not believe any word to describe someone's ethnic origin is offensive and should not be used in common parlance?

HillyWallaby · 27/02/2012 14:19

Haven't read the thread, but here is my twopenneth on this:

It is outdated an patronising call a black person coloured. (although, it does still seem to be ok to describe someone as a 'person of colour' but that is usually reserved for comments like 'the first person of colour to fly to the moon, or whatever, and it refers to all non-white and mixed race people people rather than just black, ie. African/Caribbean people.)

IME most people who use the term 'coloured' think they are being polite and sensitive about the issue of race, and that it is somehow rude or offensive to say the word 'black'.

They are misguided.

Having said all that, where 'political correctness' is concerned the long list of rules on what is deemed offensive seem to be updated on a weekly basis and can sometimes seem like a bewildering minefield to the average man on the street, so I understand that some people are nervous about what is the right or wrong thing to say so they stick with what they think sounds nicest.

PeppyNephrine · 27/02/2012 14:20
Hmm I guess you think you're funny. But you're just trying to deflect attention from yourself. You think people don't remember you from other such threads like your stance on "whats wrong with drawing slitty eyes and calling each other chinky for Chinese New Year, you're all just Professionally Offended", and others.

Keep digging, its only yourself you're showing up.

seeker · 27/02/2012 14:22

No. Black people, women, gay people and disabled people define what they want to be called, and what, therefore constitutes offensive language.

lambethlil · 27/02/2012 14:34

whatme is sitting at her desk imagining that we are surprised or incensed or even slightly bothered by her hilarious and acute observations.Hmm

Whereas the reality is that I do remember from the other threads, (and she's shown her true colours on this one too) and know that all the "give me a list" and "Miss, Miss she said moron" is a rather feeble distraction.

For some reason the fact that some people are different from her and have feelings is deeply threatening.

AugustMoon · 27/02/2012 14:35

In South Africa the term 'coloured' is used across the board for anyone of mixed-race. Having been there recently, and having a South African husband I can say, ime, it doesn't appear to be taken in offense by anyone.
Currently reading a Deon Mayer (sp) book set in Cape Town and it is used a lot and not at all in a derogatory way. Because the book is set in a multi-racial city the author describes the characters as 'black male' / 'white female' / 'coloured male' etc. and there is no ambiguity for the reader as there often is when an author doesn't allude to the race of a character for fear of offending someone - i hate that, when you've built up a picture of someone in your mind based on the information given and then you suddenly find out they're actually a certain race - a fundamental aesthetic trait that needs to be acknowledged - and you have to completely re-invent the person's appearance in your imagination. Minor complaint I realise.
Still, I wouldn't be sure whether or not it was offensive here in the UK, I would go as far as to say I know its not the "politically correct" way of describing someone, but am slightly of the opinion that if its not used in a derogatory way then why would anyone be offended? Its just a way of describing someone's appearance - like describing someone as blonde / ginger / well-built, all of which could also be turned into offensive jibes.
I don't think your friend was being offensive but I can understand why you're were a bit Shock, it's not something you hear very often in the UK.

somebloke123 · 27/02/2012 14:36

I think to retain any grip on sanity we should be quite tolerant of the words people use unless there is evidence that they were intending to be hurtful or malicious.

Someone of relatively advanced years might well use the word "coloured" because it was the polite term when they were first taught it. I don't see the need to get too upset about this, especially as the term "person of colour" is now recognised as right-on PC.

Then again, as a "white" man, am I allowed to be offended by the term "person of colour" when it it might be taken as suggesting that I am colourless?

Makes you fink dunnit ....

Pendeen · 27/02/2012 14:37

AitchTwoOhOneTwo

Maybe a crossed post?

My comments were directed elsewhere.